Dan, European and Charnier: you all have valid points, but you all get out of your line to prove them and fall prey to misconceptions.
Ask the Russian guy what a pair of American blue jeans costs over there. In Korea, Levis sold for about 80 bucks and Lee jeans sold for around a
Totally irrelevant argument. Have you checked the prices of jeans in, say, Geneva? You would faint just by staring at the price tag. Does that mean that the
Swiss economy is spiralling? I think not. Another example: I often find much cheaper prices for PC components in Greece than in the UK - does that place the
Greek economy above the Brits? (I wish )
Saying 'Capitalism kicks *** ' is ingnorant? Please elaborate. I don't think I see or hear anyone just chomping at the bits to go back to communism.
You might ask former PolitBuro members. They would certainly give you an emphatic nod. They benefited from communism (or, more to the point, of their highly
mutated version of true communism) being enforced in their countries. You obviouly benefit from capitalism, and so naturally you praise it. Care to ask the
20% (IIRC, Skoonj might be able to correct me) of the US population that is living on absolute poverty, on their views about capitalism? You might find their
Because its called FREEDOM. It comes from capitalism, not communism.
Have you bothered to examine the theory of communism at all? If you had, you would be readily able to recognise and differentiate it from the mutations that
were actually employed in self-proclaimed "communistic" states. Unless you believe that the abominations enforced in USSR, China, N.Korea etc were exactly
what Marx or Lenin had in mind......
Why do you Europeans always bring up the war? Are you that pissed that we get credit for winning it?
Quite to the contrary, it's the average Joe Blow that usually brings up the World Wars when backed into a corner into a discussion with Europeans. You see,
in your common view (not yours personally, but as a nation), you have the strong believe that a)you almost single-handedly won the war, and that b)you fought
for freedom and justice in Europe. of course, both points are wrong.
DUH...who DOESN'T think the media affects America's opinion? Kinda like state run TV in China or the former USSR, eh?
The difference being, of course, that the propaganda there is so outright and obvious that the people just turn the TV off or simply don't believe what they
are being fed. The US media has refined its methods of spoon-feeding lies to the public, so that it takes a really intelligent and knowledgable person (high
above your Joe Blow) to discern the truth from the half-truth, hyperbole, or euphimism. Different tactics, same means.
**3. Americans now have renewed pride because of "victories" in Iraq and Serbia.
-we've always had pride. you dont get it do you?
A pride hurt by a crumbled military in the 50s/60s/70s and screw-ups in SEA, Grenada, Iran etc. You really needed a chance to show-off a bit (and display
your recently reformed armed forces), and Iraq gave you that chance.
Let's see, Iraq had the 5th largest army in the world, and that's defensless? They rolled over the border into Kuwait....that's defensless? Give me a
7th largest army (including the camels, I guess). Faced by 3 of the 5 largest militay powers on earth. Not quite an even match, even leaving tech aspects
aside. As for the roll-on in Kuwait......since when are the Kuwaitis a defensive force to be reckoned with?
Of course, you wouldn't be singing the same song if they had continued their march into Saudi Arabia (gobbling up the first units of the 82nd Airborne and
leaving you with no alternatives between shutting up and nuking them from Diego Garcia)....
The US learned from Vietnam, that you cant half *** fight a war with limited objectives. You put all of your assets in the area and overwhelm the enemy.
It obviously works.
Wait a second, that's an old commie strategy!!!!!!!
Russia won the war? No offense but you have to credit the russian winter more than the army, imho. Tell me, what did Russia do to defeat the Japanese?
Thats what I thought. We fought two wars at once there buddy.
The Russian winter hurt all soldiers on the line, not just Germans. Spending the winter in your dacha is quite different than spending it on the front line,
fending off an invader of your homeland. And IIRC (Paul Morrison will correct me here, no doubt), the Russians had a no-offense pact with the Japs for most
of the war (excluding the early Manchurian skirmishes).
Last time Russia fought japan they had their *** handed to them in a big way.
True. When the US was as isolated and disconnected from world politics as China in the 70s/80s.
Were it not for them engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the
- wrong. I had family members who were there that day, so I take your comment as an insult.
No more insulting that crediting the winter more than Russian soldiers. What goes around comes around.
**5. It is historically proven fact that the Top Dog on this planet is never Top dog for long. Enjoy your time at the top. I think you will find it is
-200 years and counting...... You bitter about the USSR collapsing?
So, the US was "Top Dog" almost since its conception as a state? That's original.......how come then, that you guys were totally absent from Eurasian affairs
until WW1? And still largely isolated until the 30s? Answer: you attained superpower status by 1946/47, by formally commiting your interests and relevant
forces on a truly global scale. So did the USSR, of course.
European: The example with Albania was rather unfortunate of you. A more appropriate example would be the Scandinavian region, where
political/economic practices substantially divergent from standard capitalism have been quite successful, proving the invalidity of the artificial
polarisation (the "Capitalism or Communism" pseudo-dillemma).
Last time America legitimately fought fair was Vietnam.
I'll have to agree with Dan here, you have to elaborate on your definition of "fair fight". The limitations of ROE for US forces were very real, as was of
course their superiority in hardware and tactics (but not in overall strategy, political interventions aside).
Americans believe they are the only reason the Second World war was won. Wrong again friends. You have Russia to thank for that. Were it not for them
engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the earth.
You're exaggerating. Russia had considerable material help from the Allied convoys to Murmansk, although that doesn't decrease the achievements of the
soldiers in the field. It is true that many of the best German units were lost in the Eastern front. It is also true, however, that significant forces had
been massed on the West, waiting for the upcoming Allied invasion. That most of these units failed their strategic mission was largely a result of their
incorrect placement (half on the beach and half inland, the worst possible combination of the proposals available), rather than outstanding Allied
performance. Still not an even match, but certainly not cakewalk.
America would have had its *** kicked by Japan as well but resorted to a weapon the Japanese didn't have. I wouldn't call that a decisive Victory although
"All is fair in love and war".
The Japs had their chance for 6 months (the entire US carrier fleet was supposed to be anchored in Pearl Harbor according to the attack plan, and the
battleships were savaged only because the carriers were not there), and they were actually reigning supreme until mid-42, but after the disaster at Midway
they were never again able to operate offensively on a strategic scale. By the end of the war, the US had unquestionable superiority and could have easily
had end the war without resorting to nuclear weapons (I'll leave that to a seperate thread). Their victory was both decisive and overwhelming, but was
blackened by the unnecessary (IMHO) use of a terrible new weapon.