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Author Topic: Thoughts on Russia
MotherSuperior
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Member # 524

posted 11-17-1999 06:08 PM     Profile for MotherSuperior   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Hello all,

I happen to work with two gentlemen, one Russian and the other Ukrainian. I’m not big on politics, but enjoy talking with people from other countries.

Both gentlemen are program developers in the company I work for.

My conversation today was just with the Russian gentleman.

I’ve noticed posts in this forum about Russian lifestyle and wanted to learn more about it.

I happened to ask what type of car he prefers to drive: stick or automatic

The answer: Stick! “Driving an automatic is no fun…”

I also asked about the quality of life. “…there is no middle class…” You are either upper class, or lower class.

“The upper class are to rich…” said my Russian friend.

I then asked about the military. (Note: These gentlemen is in his late 30’s to early 40’s)

“You have two choices, two years in the Russian Military or 5 years in prison…”

Wow!

My Russian friend spent 2 years in the Russian Air Force as a crew chief on the Su-25.

Of course I had to mention the Su-27 and Flanker 2.

He instantly agreed that the Su-27 is by far the best Military jet in the world. (There was no hesitation when he responded J )

“When I was in the Russian Military, we had 3-4 hours of flight training everyday.”

The last documentary I saw on the Russian Air Force said they were lucky to have 10 hours of training a month! Boy, times have changed!

We then talked about money.

“I was paid 3 rubles a month while in the Russian Military.” (which I believe is the equivalent to 1 quarter) Of course, food, housing, and uniforms were provided for you.

In my opinion, if I could fly the Su-27 for just 10 hours a month, I would work for a quarter!

I then asked about being a program developer in Russia.

“I enjoyed it very much, the money was very good.”

I then asked about being a program developer in the United States.

“I have much passion for it now. The money is much better.”

Although my conversation was very short today, I hope to learn more about him and where he is from.

I thought this would be a great opportunity for any one that has questions about Russia, I would be more than happy to ask him.

Note: Please keep it clean and serious.

Mother


Posts: 193 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan
unregistered

posted 11-17-1999 07:09 PM       Edit/Delete Post
To sum it all up:

Capitalism kicks *** .

My last year in the Air Force, we had an Albanian Mig 19 pilot visit the NATCF (Nellis Air Traffic Control Facility). I spoke with him briefly about his country's Air Force. They have, if I can remember right, two squadrons of Mig 19s and a squadron of Mig 21s. I tried to get more from him, but as soon as he found out I was from Texas the subject changed to Dallas (the TV show...big hit over there I understand) and Austin. The guy was fascinated with the place.

Ask the Russian guy what a pair of American blue jeans costs over there. In Korea, Levis sold for about 80 bucks and Lee jeans sold for around a hundred.


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European
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posted 11-17-1999 07:55 PM       Edit/Delete Post
Yeah well, it kicks the asses of those 13% you have below the poverty line and all the homeless people. It kicks allright, but then, at least you have jeans.

Go ahead, flame if you will, it's just that I'm allergic to statements like that, usually coming from self-righteous americans.

You didn't win the war by yourself, USA isn't the center of the universe, and yes, capitalism has major drawbacks just like any other system.



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Kraigman
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posted 11-17-1999 08:23 PM     Profile for Kraigman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I hope you're not calling all Americans self-righteous.
Posts: 144 | From: Franklin, MA. USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Mailman
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Member # 14

posted 11-17-1999 08:52 PM     Profile for Mailman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Isnt it interesting talking to people from the other side of the Iron.

I have talked to a former crew chief who worked on Su24's and yep, at the hieght of the cold war they were getting something like 20 days a month flying time but the last time I spoke to him his squadron hadnt flown for nearly 6 months.

Also, Lee jeans can cost over $100USD in New Zealand (about $200NZD) but thanks to parallell importing we can now get em for as little as $20USD

Regards

Mailman


Posts: 766 | From: Wellington, New Zealand | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
[mposter
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Member # 354

posted 11-17-1999 09:25 PM     Profile for [mposter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
European wrote: USA isn't the center of the universe....

Everyone knows that the USA is NOT the center of the Universe- Jezzz... Its the center of the Galaxy ! Duh.....


Posts: 395 | From: Amarillo, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
European
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Member # 1026

posted 11-18-1999 06:51 AM     Profile for European   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Kraigman: No, I'm not calling all americans self-righteous or ignorant, just those who display that quality in words or action. (

[mposter: I should have known better!


Posts: 13 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan
unregistered

posted 11-18-1999 07:34 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Gee European, my fault for having so much pride in my country....I feel like such a heel - not.

Who said anything about war? Are you still bitter about something?

Where are you from?


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European
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posted 11-18-1999 12:28 PM     Profile for European   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I'm not bitter about anything, and most of the americans I meet are quite alright. But there are a lot of you who have no limits on what you're saying. Probably patriotism coupled with too much ignorance...

The reason I mentioned 'the war' is that a whole lot of you (without generalizing) seem to think you fought the war alone, without a thought about the millions of people who fought and died over here while you were considering if you'd give us a hand or not. I'm not saying that you are one of those, nor am I downplaying the american role in the final defeat of the axis powers, it's just that I found your remark on Capitalism to be on the same ignorant level.

To get respect you gotta both earn it and give it, give us some credit and we'll give you some back.

As far as capitalism goes I think it's fairly ignorant to talk about how good it is and to mention the difference between the upper class and the lower class in Albania (MotherSuperior) when USA is in the same situation. Besides, Albania has a good chance of having less murders and crime than you, so don't patronize the eastern european countries just because you don't know any better.

Where I'm from is quite irrelevant, western europe will have to suffice (with no ties whatsoever to eastern europe or russia).

On a final note, I have lived in the States for six months (4 months in SF & two in Miami) and I know that USA has both its good and bad sides. I try not to downplay either of them. Would be nice for some more americans to acknowledge the bad ones though, then perhaps you can start working on them.

In good will,
European


Posts: 13 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
MotherSuperior
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posted 11-18-1999 01:58 PM     Profile for MotherSuperior   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
European,

You wouldn't be calling me ignorant, would you?

I had to read that section over and over. Not quite sure how to take it.

The conversation I had with my Russian friend was just that. A conversation.

We did not discuss politics, who is better, who is not, etc.

I just thought it would be a great opportunity for people that read this thread to be able to ask questions.


As far as being an American, I am and very proud to be one. Although I have never served in the Military, my father has. He took part in Vietnam, Desert Storm, and Somalia.

And yes, I would say most Americans are ignorant and self centered. I wish I could apologize for them, but you know as well as I that I can't.

I could and would list all the faults in America as I see it, but this is not the place for it.

Mother


Posts: 193 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-18-1999 02:56 PM       Edit/Delete Post
I'm not one to get involved in these arguments but I am so fed up with Americans blowing their horns I feel I have to.

1. Last time America legitimately fought fair was Vietnam. They were accredited with a convincing LOSS, despite what many Americans will try to tell you.

2. America is controlled by the media. You believe what they want you to believe. i.e. Do you actually believe that they don't know what happened on that Egypt Air jet yet? After 4 days of listenting to the tape? Give me a break. They know damn well, but they aren't telling us. TWA ... many belive that was a SAM. Funny how no one ever disproved that theory and what many people on the ground saw that night was consistent with a SAM launch and impact.

3. Americans now have renewed pride because of "victories" in Iraq and Serbia. This really amuses me. America attacked 2 almost defenseless countries. What were you expecting the outcome to be? The US has learned from Vietnam that going in on the ground is NOT a good idea. So they resort to High Altitude "precision" bombing. As usual, this resulted in many civilian casualties. Had the US gone in on the ground in Serbia, I think it might have been a different story altogether.

4. Americans believe they are the only reason the Second World war was won. Wrong again friends. You have Russia to thank for that. Were it not for them engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the earth.

5. It is historically proven fact that the Top Dog on this planet is never Top dog for long. Enjoy your time at the top. I think you will find it is short lived.

Oh and Flame me all you want ....

Charnier.


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European
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posted 11-18-1999 02:58 PM     Profile for European   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
MotherSuperior, I'm sorry for ruining the discussion - it was nice of you to start it and offer to ask your Russian friend questions regarding Russia.

I guess that after encountering time and again american claims to superhood, Dan's comment on capitalism got the better of me. It's just that I can't think of anything more frustrating than people saying they're "all that" when they aren't.

I'm pretty confident that you aren't ignorant and I'm sorry for dragging you into my reply, I'm not even sure that Dan's ignorant, only that one line he wrote.

Anyways, constant bickering won't get us anywhere so I'll move on and try to stay out of meaningless discussions for a while (I mean, *if* those I discuss with really are ignorant, then what do I believe I can accomplish by bickering with them? )

Anyways, sorry.

Unless I have alienated myself too much already I have a question you could ask him. If he could give you an idea of *how* they train over there that'd be interesting to hear about (how much live ammo training, big 'all-forces' events, etc.).

In any case; Proceed sir!

[This message has been edited by European (edited 11-18-1999).]


Posts: 13 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
ayk
unregistered

posted 11-18-1999 03:12 PM       Edit/Delete Post
Mom,

Ask him what tactics they were taught for dealing with US and other airorces in case of military conflict. The inferiority of avionics was probably over-compensated by the ingenious tactics and using one's brains instead of gadgets ;-) Let him tell us about it.


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fodder
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posted 11-18-1999 03:53 PM     Profile for fodder   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Who cares about the now (IMO) tired battle between Europe and the USA... sheesh. Give us a break alrady.

Momma er, um... Papa,

Like 'ayk', I actually have a question for your co-worker! <VBG>

I would like to ask him about what tactics a Su-25 driver was told to use if encountered by air hostiles over a modern battlefied, especially if engaged by a fast mover, like an FA-18 or F-16.

Also what does he think of the A-10 vs. the Su-25? I am dieing to hear what he has to say...


-Fodder out

[This message has been edited by fodder (edited 11-18-1999).]


Posts: 96 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
sVoloch
unregistered

posted 11-18-1999 10:50 PM       Edit/Delete Post
I've lived in Russia= native, Austria and Italy.
Thanks God!!!!!! I'm at HOME in LA
Please guys do me a favor, stay in your
Countries and don't come here .I was 24(20 years ago) when I came to my HOMEland USA
And few years ago I've built THIS http://home.earthlink.net/~basiamisha/berk.i.cokpt.jpg
You dudes want to tell me that a guy like me
Would be able to do the same in your country???
Kiss offfffff.
Mishka

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dan
unregistered

posted 11-18-1999 11:09 PM       Edit/Delete Post
European,

Saying 'Capitalism kicks *** ' is ingnorant?

Please elaborate. I don't think I see or hear anyone just chomping at the bits to go back to communism. Maybe those who do are the ignorant ones. What the hell does praising capitalism have to do with you calling me ignorant? If you don't like capitalism then I suggest you leave the US. But you don't have too. Because its called FREEDOM. It comes from capitalism, not communism. Why are you so scared to tell us where you are from? I'm from Texas.

Why do you Europeans always bring up the war? Are you that pissed that we get credit for winning it? That was over 50 years ago, let it rest.

Charnier - you sound like an ignorant twit. I will entertain your ridiculous points.

**1. Last time America legitimately fought fair was Vietnam. They were accredited with a convincing LOSS, despite what many Americans will try to tell you.**

Please explain how you 'legitimately fight a war'. That makes no sense whatsoever. The only poeple that lost where the Vietnamese people who had to leave their country, who did not want to get MURDERED by NVA commies.

**2. America is controlled by the media. You believe what they want you to believe. i.e. Do you actually believe that they don't know what happened on that Egypt Air jet yet? After 4 days of listenting to the tape? Give me a break. They know damn well, but they aren't telling us. TWA ... many belive that was a SAM. Funny how no one ever disproved that theory and what many people on the ground saw that night was consistent with a SAM launch and impact.

DUH...who DOESN'T think the media affects America's opinion? Kinda like state run TV in China or the former USSR, eh? So what did happen to the Egypt Air jet? Are you gonna fill us in on that?

**3. Americans now have renewed pride because of "victories" in Iraq and Serbia.

-we've always had pride. you dont get it do you?


This really amuses me.

-vice versa.

America attacked 2 almost defenseless countries.

-ROFLMAO. First of all Mr. Genius, it wasn't America. There were a lot of other countries that took part in the conflicts, in case you weren't paying attention. Let's see, Iraq had the 5th largest army in the world, and that's defensless? They rolled over the border into Kuwait....that's defensless? Give me a break.

What were you expecting the outcome to be?

-We did exactly what we expected, we won.

The US has learned from Vietnam that going in on the ground is NOT a good idea. So they resort to High Altitude "precision" bombing. As usual, this resulted in many civilian casualties.

-HAHA, you're killing me here. The US learned from Vietnam, that you cant half *** fight a war with limited objectives. You put all of your assets in the area and overwhelm the enemy. It obviously works. I would love to see your claims of mass civilian casualties. I bet you believed that actually was a baby milk factory didnt you?

Had the US gone in on the ground in Serbia, I think it might have been a different story altogether.

-Yeah, alot of people would have died.

**4. Americans believe they are the only reason the Second World war was won.

-Where do you get this false assumption?

Wrong again friends. You have Russia to thank for that.

-Russia won the war? No offense but you have to credit the russian winter more than the army, imho. Tell me, what did Russia do to defeat the Japanese? Thats what I thought. We fought two wars at once there buddy. Last time Russia fought japan they had their *** handed to them in a big way.

Were it not for them engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the earth.

- wrong. I had family members who were there that day, so I take your comment as an insult.

**5. It is historically proven fact that the Top Dog on this planet is never Top dog for long. Enjoy your time at the top. I think you will find it is short lived.

-200 years and counting...... You bitter about the USSR collapsing?

It is quite obvious that you are a bitter Russian or some eastern bloc citizen. You have no clue as to what America is or stands for, believe me. If all you can argue about is a war that was fought over 50 years ago, and claim that two countries who slaughter ethnic rivals were ruthlessly attacked by the US, then you have problems comrade.


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Fishbed77
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posted 11-18-1999 11:43 PM     Profile for Fishbed77   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Although I don't agree eith some of Dan's language, I must agree with most of his points, for they are dead-on. Charnier's points were very weak and were backed by almost no historical evidence. However, one can not ignore the human sacrifices made by the Russian population in defeating the Nazis. Even if their leader, Stalin, cared nothing about humanity.

As for European, I can see why he has such a distaste for America! -- spending time in San Fran and Miami! -- what crapholes!

Just Kidding! :> )
Please don't flame me for that!
After all, I come from a little third-world country called South Carolina!


Posts: 157 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 01:25 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Dan, I sound like an idiot? I laid the trap .... you walked in, as I knew you would.

I know other countries were involved but all saying that does is increase the shame. So what you are saying now is that it took more than one Country (All of them far more militarily advanced than Iraq or Serbia) to win a cheaply fought war where you don't even face your enemy? Hmmm Nice, real nice.

Oh, and you really don't understand cause and effect do you? The Allies won in Europe BECAUSE Germany was wiped out (Primarily by the Russians) and America would have had its *** kicked by Japan as well but resorted to a weapon the Japanese didn't have. I wouldn't call that a decisive Victory although "All is fair in love and war".

"**5. It is historically proven fact that the Top Dog on this planet is never Top dog for long. Enjoy your time at the top. I think you will find it is short lived.

-200 years and counting...... You bitter about the USSR collapsing?"

No I'm not bitter about that, what gets me bitter is your stupid attitude. So I guess the US will be top dog forever according to you and will totally ignore all previous historical trends. Uh huh, sure it will. Your're quite arrogant.

"-HAHA, you're killing me here. The US learned from Vietnam, that you cant half *** fight a war with limited objectives. You put all of your assets in the area and overwhelm the enemy. It obviously works. I would love to see your claims of mass civilian casualties. I bet you believed that actually was a baby milk factory didnt you?"

I don't know if it was a milk factory or not, but I do know that it WAS the Chinese Embassy and it was Civilians trying to leave their country and it was ..... should I go on? "Its America ... The friendly fire country".

Eh Fishbed .... I have no historical backing? Read a history book. The Russians slaughtered almost 2/3 of Hitler's Ground Troops, And because they were dead they couldn't fight anywhere else. Make sense?


Charnier

PS: Dan, What does your family have to do with anything in this argument? Is that just to try to get people to sympathize. I never took away from what the Allies did at D-DAY, I simply stated it wouldn't have been won had there been more Germans there and a larger Luftwaffe presence.


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rvv-ae
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 01:27 AM       Edit/Delete Post
In WWII Russians (SU) dafeat Japan in 1945(August-not winter) in Manjuria(China). It was (about)1,000,000(mil) Japanese army out there.It was SU army, not Russian winter.They(SU)took back all Sachalin and ather Islands that Japanese took from Russia in 1905.SU army defeat Nazi`s army in sammers too (1943-Kursk,1944-Belorussia,Ukrain), not only in winter(1941-Moscow,1942-43 - Stalingrad...).
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Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 01:30 AM       Edit/Delete Post
I Forgot something, I never said Russia won the war. I said they contributed heavily to the winning of the war.

Charnier


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Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 01:40 AM       Edit/Delete Post
"It is quite obvious that you are a bitter Russian or some eastern bloc citizen. You have no clue as to what America is or stands for, believe me. If all you can argue about is a war that was fought over 50 years ago, and claim that two countries who slaughter ethnic rivals were ruthlessly attacked by the US, then you have problems comrade."

Oh I missed this, and I do believe in being thourough. The US doesn't discriminate against Ethnic minorities ... Oh no. Get the **** out of here please. This is perhaps the stupidest thing you have said. Read the paper lately? 3 Good old boys dragged a black guy around behind their pick up and then decapitated him. But that was an isolated incident right? Shutup. The only major difference between the US and say Iraq is that Iraq openly slaughtered minorities and the US slowly grinds down minorities behind closed doors (Low income neighbourhoods etc). Your holier than thou attitude is really shallow and you obviously can't see past the propoganda of your own Country.


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Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 01:43 AM       Edit/Delete Post
One last thought:

"People who live in glass houses, Shouldn't throw stones"

Charnier


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rrevved
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 02:25 AM       Edit/Delete Post
>So what you are saying now is that it took more
>than one Country (All of them far more militarily advanced than Iraq
>or Serbia) to win a cheaply fought war where you don't even face your
>enemy? Hmmm Nice, real nice.

Why should we 'face' the enemy? That would
only put more of our troops at risk.

You sound like someone who is jealous of the
technology that we possess. We don't fight
hand to hand much anymore.


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Akula
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 04:01 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Dan, European and Charnier: you all have valid points, but you all get out of your line to prove them and fall prey to misconceptions.


Dan

Ask the Russian guy what a pair of American blue jeans costs over there. In Korea, Levis sold for about 80 bucks and Lee jeans sold for around a

hundred.
Totally irrelevant argument. Have you checked the prices of jeans in, say, Geneva? You would faint just by staring at the price tag. Does that mean that the

Swiss economy is spiralling? I think not. Another example: I often find much cheaper prices for PC components in Greece than in the UK - does that place the

Greek economy above the Brits? (I wish )

Saying 'Capitalism kicks *** ' is ingnorant? Please elaborate. I don't think I see or hear anyone just chomping at the bits to go back to communism.
You might ask former PolitBuro members. They would certainly give you an emphatic nod. They benefited from communism (or, more to the point, of their highly

mutated version of true communism) being enforced in their countries. You obviouly benefit from capitalism, and so naturally you praise it. Care to ask the

20% (IIRC, Skoonj might be able to correct me) of the US population that is living on absolute poverty, on their views about capitalism? You might find their

opinion interesting......

Because its called FREEDOM. It comes from capitalism, not communism.
Have you bothered to examine the theory of communism at all? If you had, you would be readily able to recognise and differentiate it from the mutations that

were actually employed in self-proclaimed "communistic" states. Unless you believe that the abominations enforced in USSR, China, N.Korea etc were exactly

what Marx or Lenin had in mind......

Why do you Europeans always bring up the war? Are you that pissed that we get credit for winning it?
Quite to the contrary, it's the average Joe Blow that usually brings up the World Wars when backed into a corner into a discussion with Europeans. You see,

in your common view (not yours personally, but as a nation), you have the strong believe that a)you almost single-handedly won the war, and that b)you fought

for freedom and justice in Europe. of course, both points are wrong.

DUH...who DOESN'T think the media affects America's opinion? Kinda like state run TV in China or the former USSR, eh?
The difference being, of course, that the propaganda there is so outright and obvious that the people just turn the TV off or simply don't believe what they

are being fed. The US media has refined its methods of spoon-feeding lies to the public, so that it takes a really intelligent and knowledgable person (high

above your Joe Blow) to discern the truth from the half-truth, hyperbole, or euphimism. Different tactics, same means.

**3. Americans now have renewed pride because of "victories" in Iraq and Serbia.
-we've always had pride. you dont get it do you?

A pride hurt by a crumbled military in the 50s/60s/70s and screw-ups in SEA, Grenada, Iran etc. You really needed a chance to show-off a bit (and display

your recently reformed armed forces), and Iraq gave you that chance.

Let's see, Iraq had the 5th largest army in the world, and that's defensless? They rolled over the border into Kuwait....that's defensless? Give me a

break.
7th largest army (including the camels, I guess). Faced by 3 of the 5 largest militay powers on earth. Not quite an even match, even leaving tech aspects

aside. As for the roll-on in Kuwait......since when are the Kuwaitis a defensive force to be reckoned with?
Of course, you wouldn't be singing the same song if they had continued their march into Saudi Arabia (gobbling up the first units of the 82nd Airborne and

leaving you with no alternatives between shutting up and nuking them from Diego Garcia)....

The US learned from Vietnam, that you cant half *** fight a war with limited objectives. You put all of your assets in the area and overwhelm the enemy.

It obviously works.
Wait a second, that's an old commie strategy!!!!!!!

Russia won the war? No offense but you have to credit the russian winter more than the army, imho. Tell me, what did Russia do to defeat the Japanese?

Thats what I thought. We fought two wars at once there buddy.
The Russian winter hurt all soldiers on the line, not just Germans. Spending the winter in your dacha is quite different than spending it on the front line,

fending off an invader of your homeland. And IIRC (Paul Morrison will correct me here, no doubt), the Russians had a no-offense pact with the Japs for most

of the war (excluding the early Manchurian skirmishes).

Last time Russia fought japan they had their *** handed to them in a big way.
True. When the US was as isolated and disconnected from world politics as China in the 70s/80s.

Were it not for them engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the

earth.
- wrong. I had family members who were there that day, so I take your comment as an insult.

No more insulting that crediting the winter more than Russian soldiers. What goes around comes around.

**5. It is historically proven fact that the Top Dog on this planet is never Top dog for long. Enjoy your time at the top. I think you will find it is

short lived.
-200 years and counting...... You bitter about the USSR collapsing?

So, the US was "Top Dog" almost since its conception as a state? That's original.......how come then, that you guys were totally absent from Eurasian affairs

until WW1? And still largely isolated until the 30s? Answer: you attained superpower status by 1946/47, by formally commiting your interests and relevant

forces on a truly global scale. So did the USSR, of course.


European: The example with Albania was rather unfortunate of you. A more appropriate example would be the Scandinavian region, where

political/economic practices substantially divergent from standard capitalism have been quite successful, proving the invalidity of the artificial

polarisation (the "Capitalism or Communism" pseudo-dillemma).


Charnier

Last time America legitimately fought fair was Vietnam.
I'll have to agree with Dan here, you have to elaborate on your definition of "fair fight". The limitations of ROE for US forces were very real, as was of

course their superiority in hardware and tactics (but not in overall strategy, political interventions aside).

Americans believe they are the only reason the Second World war was won. Wrong again friends. You have Russia to thank for that. Were it not for them

engaging 2/3 of the Vermacht, The US would have not had the cakewalk at Normandy. They would have been wiped of the face of the earth.
You're exaggerating. Russia had considerable material help from the Allied convoys to Murmansk, although that doesn't decrease the achievements of the

soldiers in the field. It is true that many of the best German units were lost in the Eastern front. It is also true, however, that significant forces had

been massed on the West, waiting for the upcoming Allied invasion. That most of these units failed their strategic mission was largely a result of their

incorrect placement (half on the beach and half inland, the worst possible combination of the proposals available), rather than outstanding Allied

performance. Still not an even match, but certainly not cakewalk.

America would have had its *** kicked by Japan as well but resorted to a weapon the Japanese didn't have. I wouldn't call that a decisive Victory although

"All is fair in love and war".
The Japs had their chance for 6 months (the entire US carrier fleet was supposed to be anchored in Pearl Harbor according to the attack plan, and the

battleships were savaged only because the carriers were not there), and they were actually reigning supreme until mid-42, but after the disaster at Midway

they were never again able to operate offensively on a strategic scale. By the end of the war, the US had unquestionable superiority and could have easily

had end the war without resorting to nuclear weapons (I'll leave that to a seperate thread). Their victory was both decisive and overwhelming, but was

blackened by the unnecessary (IMHO) use of a terrible new weapon.


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Fulcrum
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 04:08 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Don't get me wrong I like America and Americans in general (I have American cousins) but the US really does have something of an attitude when it comes to the rest of the world.
(I'd go into more detail but I've a bus to catch)
Talking to my cousins (great guys) about Iraq, their response was "level it" which just about sums it up.

I also said if Europe was unified ala the US it would be economically as powerful as the US which proked howls of laughter.

Oh, yeah, whats the problem with the UN? You seem to hate it.

(just glanced over that, its not meant to be overally critical, just trying to raise a few points)

PEACE

BTW I'm from Northern Ireland, thanks for Senator Mitchell by the way.


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arrow
Member
Member # 321

posted 11-19-1999 04:24 AM     Profile for arrow   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
My country surely it's the best of all in terms of won wars.

We started to fight some 2000 years ago, dominating all europe and the mediterranean area.

Then we found ourselves in the 1st and 2nd world war, starting always with the strongest side, and suddely shifting to the other side when it was almost winning, so we won all the last wars.

I'm really proud to be member of a nation that never had the power of winning anything, that almost always choosed the wrong side, but after all, at the end was ever on the winning side.

Bottom line: if your country starts a conflict and has us as an ally from the start, you better start to worry


Posts: 350 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Andy Bush
Member
Member # 12

posted 11-19-1999 04:59 AM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
My Goodness!!

This is a flight sim forum!! Can't we just talk about flight models or something?!!

Akula..

>>Care to ask the 20% (IIRC, Skoonj might be able to correct me) of the US population that is living on absolute poverty, on their views about capitalism? You might find their
opinion interesting......<<

There's no argument that a small part of the US population live in lousy conditions (whatever that means...), but the term 'poverty level' is a political football that the Dems and Repubs throw around to support their economic proposals.

If you are in the US, or if you can get to the US, then drive around a bit...all over, not just in some major city depressed area. Check out the country...find out for yourself if one out of five (20%) are living in 'poverty'. Then ask yourself if this is really the cesspool that some would like to think it is.

I'm not trying to argue with you, or deny that some people live in lousy conditions...they do. But there are people like that in every country on this planet. Maybe that is just the way humans are...most want to have a decent life and they get out and work for it. Others (a small %) seem to not want to work for it.

The US economy is doing great. Jobs can be found anywhere. If a person wants to work, they can.

I don't know what the answer is. How do we motivate that % of the population to make something of themselves? It's not that people haven't tried. Maybe that's just the way the world is...no matter where you are or what the political system is.

Having said that...can someone tell me how to get the Player To Target external view in F2 to work? Now there's a problem worth solving!!

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 06:04 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Akula, While your post is well written, your condescending tone and "I am right" attitude really just makes me want to totally disregard it. Your answers are all opinions and are not written in stone. Of course you are an American (I assume by your references to "We" in your paragraph about Vietnam) which makes you totally biased. I am not going to waste anymore time on this as it is, as someone pointed out, a flight sim board. You Americans are entitled to your opinions, as twisted and Anti "Rest of the World" as they may be. I think Americans forget all to often that they are not alone on this little planet and were not authorized by anyone to be Earth's "Police Force".

Charnier.


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Charnier
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 06:08 AM       Edit/Delete Post
My apologies Akula, after re-reading your post I am of the opinion that you are British so I retract the "biased" statement, although technically, Britain is an American puppet, but thats a whole other story.

Charnier

If I'm wrong about your origins, apologies in advance.


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Piglet
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 06:10 AM       Edit/Delete Post
Hi Andy,
Can you believe these people?!?
The player/trgt view works when you push SHF F8. I think you have to have a lock/visual on the target for this to work. I use it all the time in furballs(still get killed all the time!)
Piglet
P.S. I read your articles on BFM at SimHq

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Brandor
Member
Member # 2

posted 11-19-1999 06:17 AM     Profile for Brandor     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I have moved this topic out of the forum as it is now out of focus.

It's now continued in the Current forum.

[This message has been edited by Brandor (edited 11-19-1999).]


Posts: 119 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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