Commander Massoud must be supported, help from Russia, the US or India is vital now!! (Airstrikes would take of a lot of heat of the Mujaheddin grunts.)

It's a good thing we already knocked out Iraq and Serbia before they could launch their plans for world domination!

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9000 Pakistani regulars
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Skoonj

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Excelsior, Fathead!
--Jean Shepherd

A must 'primer' of Afganistan and its Pakistani borders is: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/09/kaplan.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by Slider18:
mbaxter, please stop repeating your propaganda. According to you Pakistan is the reason for all the evil in the world, while India is the most peace loving country around.

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Uh....yeah.

As for Pakistan now being against the Taliban, that's rediculous. That would be a 360-degree policy shift and would be seen as a betrayal in Pakistan. Just out of curiosity I looked for that in the news and found no such report in any publication including Stratfor.

I did notice this recent report, though, from Pakistan's biggest news service, no less.

"October 25, 2000; In Tajikistan, the Russian defense minister met with Ahmed Shah Masood, the leader of the United Front. Russia has long supplied the United Front with weapons, ammunition and other aid. But with the loss of key towns on the Tajik border, it has become more difficult for the United Front to get the stuff from Tajikistan into Afghanistan."

quote:

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"They created them, they armed them, supplied them, and their troops have commanded and fought alongside them."

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actually I believe the US did, as the CIA set up their training camps to be self-sustaining so that once initial training of the Mujahadeen was complete they could take their personnel out to add 'plausible deniability'...I think the US should clean up its own **** !

As for the dawn article, it just mentions that the Taliban thanked Pakistan for not allowing its airspace to be used for US attacks.

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Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar told reporters in Karachi on Saturday "Pakistan has not allowed the use of its airspace (for US attacks) in the past nor will it allow (it) in the future."
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Now tell me how that equals Pakistani military support for the Taliban!!! You have still not provided me with evidence that Pakistan provides direct military support to the Taliban.

Yes, we do diplomatically support them, and this is because they control 90% of Afghanistan and are friendly to Pakistan. I’ll agree with you that the Taliban have enacted some policies that are right out of the middle ages, but Massoud is also just another inept, corrupt warlord whose losing.

And comedy_dave speaks the truth, it was the CIA that really created the Mujahideen and then left Pakistan to deal with all the mess. Pakistan has had to deal with a lot of mess (2 million Afghan refugees still in Pak) because of the Afghan war, and the least we can get out of this is an Afghani government that’s friendly to Pakistan.

The Taliban is in our interest. I’m sure the US would have done the same thing in our position.

And we seem to be succeeding at this. BTW, what do you think India can do in Afghanistan? It can barely contain Kashmir.

And Incase you missed it, I am Pakistani, and I do not support OBL. Now, tell us Mbaxter, are your loyalties to India?

How about the gang rape of Christian women by members of Lakshary Taiba?

How about the death penalty for a 14 year old illiterate Christian accused of writing defamatory statements on the wall of a mosque (there was no proof of the accusation, the wall was unmarked [islamist religious leaders claimed they removed it, because it was so vile] and the boy *IS* illiterate)?

Pakistan is a hotbed of religious violence, descrimination, persecution and intolerance.
http://www.persecution.com/country/index.cfm?action=overview&countryid=36&PrayerPointID=71
http://www.geocities.com/~iarf/pakreport.html

Pakistan's government does not have similar interests to the west, especially the US, any longer. They haven't for many years. Pakistan has been coddling terrorists lately, as has Taliban.

I hope the next US president begins to develop closer ties with India. We were wrong to stop the delivery of F-16s to Pakistan a few years ago, but more recently it has been harder to justify close relations with Pakistan.

Skoonj

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Excelsior, Fathead!
--Jean Shepherd

Paul, I agree with you that the blasphemy law has been repeatedly misused in Pakistan by corrupt politicians to harass the opposition. This is not just a Christian vs. Muslims thing. It has also been used against Muslims. But this is the first time I’m hearing about the “gang rape of Christian women”.

But what does all this have to do with the Taliban or Afghanistan???

[any third world country] is a hotbed of religious violence, descrimination, persecution and intolerance.

Skoonj, are you aware of Afghani history? If not, let me tell you a little bit from what I know.

Yes, Pakistan does diplomatically support the Taliban because they are currently the only unifying factor in Afghanistan. They may be less then perfect, put at least now there is some sort of security and safety insider Afghanistan. Did you know before the Taliban came to power, there was complete and total anarchy in Afghanistan? A generation had grown up seeing war and death and that is all they knew. Killings, rapes and lootings were rampant after the Soviets left leavening the warring factions of Mujahideens to themselves. There was no sanity in Afghanistan. You could not sleep at night without fearing that someone would chop your head off.

The Taliban through there strict laws have bought back some normality to the situation. Criminals are harshly punished and people are now safer. Yes, the Taliban rule very harshly, but that is exactly what the post-war Afghanistan needs right now. People tend to overlook that quite easily. I know that it’s easy to blame the Taliban for everything, but Massoud is worse then the Taliban.

And you are right that Pakistan’s government does not have similar interests to the US. And why should we? We have our own interests. Some of which include sending back the 2 million Afghan refugees back where they belong. The best prospect for this happening is when the Taliban is under control of the situation. The only US interest is to get OBL and overthrow the Taliban. Of course the US does not realize or care that this will create more problems for Afghanistan and Pakistan, then solve any.

But as they say, each county has it’s own interests, and Pakistan will stick to its own. We supported the US interests for twenty years and it got us 2 million refugees, drugs, guns and sanctions. We can’t keep supporting the refugees anymore; we have enough poor people to feed.

The US can develop closer ties with India if it wants. Just remember, India, like every other country also has it’s own interests to take care off.

Skoonj, what terrorists are we coddling? We let you guys take Kasi, the guy from the embassy bombings in Africa, the Jordanian guy who planned to blow up something during New Year, and many others who I don’t recall right now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Slider18:
Skoonj, what terrorists are we coddling?

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Please! Give it up dude. Despite vested interests in the US who have let Pakistan get away with terrorism that other nations have been blacklisted for, the truth is out my friend. The Pakistani government has sponsored terrorism for years. Heck even this January when the whole world was watching, Pakistan let those airline hijackers drive right out of Afghanistan and straight into Pakistan where they were allowed to walk free. Obviously the Pakistani authorities could've picked up those terrorists easily, they just drove right into Pakistan on a main highway, but they deliberately chose not to.

This is just one example. Even the US state department now acknowledges that Pakistan and Afghanistan have now become the main center of Islamic terrorist activity, replacing the Middle East as the main area of concern. It's only politics that keeps the US from adding Pakistan to the official US list of terrorist states. (They can't add Afghanistan because technically the Taliban aren't the gov't - US still recognizes the opposition as legitimate gov't of Aghanistan).

And by the way, I never quoted any Indian sources, in fact I quoted your own Paki newspapers. And please, give credit where it's due. Not only do I support India (evil Hindu kaffirs to use your lingo), I also support Isreal (bloodsucking Jew vermin), Russia (godless infidels), and the Western democracies (decadent worshippers of a great Satan). I'll favor these anytime over your Muslim authoritarian nations or governments like China & North Korea (your country's two closest chums, by the way). Yes, that does make me biased. Sorry, there's some things you just can't be objective about - freedom is one of those things.

Anyway, as for the claims of intervention, there is a great deal of info out there (not from Indian sources) detailing Pakistani intelligence (ISI) involvement in both Kashmir and Afghanistan. Here are just a few links, the bottom one from your own most prominent newspaper:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/pakistan/ http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/08/26/text/p7s1.html http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20001028.htm

"...UN envoy Lakhdar Brahimi stated publicly this summer that he witnessed numerous Pakistani advisers and soldiers in Kabul."

"With Pakistani military help, including thousands of youth who came from the Islamic madrassas, or schools, in Pakistan, the Taliban soon controlled all but the Panjshir Valley."

Just last week, Masood (head of the anti-Taliban alliance) said "We told the Pakistanis, 'You are backing the Taliban, you send regulars to Afghanistan, you arm and train extremists, we don't believe in your mediation".

Heck Slider even the Paki newspapers openly admit the involvement in Afghanistan and Kashmir: "Across the world, we have been branded an exporter of fundamentalism and terrorism. Pakistanis are known to have taken part in large numbers on the side of the Taliban in battles in Afghanistan. The Russian government has accused us of sending fighters to Chechnya and there are reports of Pakistanis fighting as far away as in Bosnia."

Notice you never cited any sources at all, by the way.

Fact: Taliban controls 80%+ of Afghanistan.

Fact: You can't do anything about it.

Fiction: Pakistan is the root cause of evil.

Fact: Arrogant, narrow-minded people like you are the real cause.

Cheers

Deal with it!

Pakistan already is.

P.S. Good ole Osama has training camps in Pakistan.

"Russian troops guarding the Afghan border in Tajikistan have begun to return fire against Taliban positions just across the border. Taliban forces, which drove United Front troops away from the border this Summer, have been firing into Tajikistan (as suspected United Front forces.)" (again from strategy page)

How does the Taliban fight its war against the United Front? Conventional assaults? How are their forces organized? Loosely or close-knit regular formations? (Trying to figure out how easily they could be crushed)

Ahhh...not really. Pakistan does have camps for Kashmiri militants. I wouldn't call them terrorists. India and you all might though.

ar·ro·gant (r-gnt)
adj.

Making or disposed to make claims to unwarranted importance or consideration out of overbearing pride.
Marked by or arising from arrogance: an arrogant contempt for the weak.

As per Pakistan trying to wrying its hands clean of terrorism....you gotta be kidding me.

Is the Christian Science Monitor in cahoots with the Hindus? http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/09/27/fp11s1-csm.shtml

Do you consider ABC to be a mouthpiece of the Indian government? http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/binladen000418.html

A very prosperous future for Pakistan indeed! Didn't this newspapers office get bombed recently? http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2000-daily/23-10-2000/main/main13.htm

Is this guy a Pakistani traitor for speaking out? Are his days numbered? Should the Dawn newspaper expect a bomb blast aswell? http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20001028.htm

New York Times, well 'nuff said. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/05/world/05OSAM.html
http://freeman.io.com/m_online/bodansky/axis.htm

The US cares about it's own interests in the world, right?

Well, so does Pakistan and every other country on this planet.

Get over it.

SDavis, I wish I could show you the images from pre-Taliban anarchist days. Relatively speaking they were worse. Now people can at least sleep peacefully at night

Hence what mbaxter does is take the worst of the worst and post them up here. I know he has been to India but by his own word he had not been to Pakistan. I have and he REALLY, REALLY over exaggerates the issues. Yes, there are issues....but no really others than a third world country would face. The poor are easy targets to manipulate, be that via patriotic, religious or economic ground. The building up of these internal factions means that no uniformity or real control at present could be exerted by the powers that be if it where not to be turned into a police state and i do not believe that the numbers are possible.

Skoonj

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Excelsior, Fathead!
--Jean Shepherd

Uh-huh... But I was asking you about *YOUR* country, not about india. I have my own problems with india, but I find your blase attitude to religious violence in Pakistan offensive.