CRKVENA VODICA, Yugoslavia -- NATO peacekeepers have stepped up patrols in and around a Kosovo village following a drive-by hand-grenade attack in which nine Serbian children were injured.

The attack, on Friday, came just hours after an explosion in the province's capital wounded one woman and damaged several political offices.

Flight Lt. Tim Serrell-Cooke, a spokesman for British peacekeepers, said the grenades were hurled by three occupants of a vehicle who ignored warning shots fired in the air by a U.N. policeman as they sped away.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeadHead:
Ok, so what's the purpose of posting this story?

---

You must realise though, that the reason the policeman could not shoot at the attackers is because his ROE's are made to prevent people such as yourself (by that I mean those that critisize/protest every action) being critical of our troops' actions.

Personaly, I think the ROE's as pertains grenades is WRONG and should be amended. As it is right now, once the grenade has left the enemy's hand, the grenade is the threat, not the man, and thus we cannot shoot. I feel this is wrong, as the man who threw a grenade may throw another, has shown himself as a threat in the past, has demonstrated his lack of respect for life by throwing lethal grenades, and may have another threat available to him, perhaps in the form of a pistol.

But I am not a policy maker (probably a good thing!!) and have no wish to be one.

>>>Ok, so what's the purpose of posting this story?

The purpose of this story is to open a discussion about children as targets of terrorism in Kosovo. Also, we may talk about how was this incident reported in media. Eventually, the purpose of my post is to talk about the KFOR (read NATO) and UN effectiveness in providing protection to all people of Kosovo and guaranteeing human rights to all human beings in Kosovo.
I will begin with media coverage. The article I posted failed in two very important issues:
1. These children were deliberately targeted and CNN (propaganda) did not find it necessary to say that.
2. The author of the article did not condemn the attack!?

>>>I don't know what I'd do without all the valuable,
>>>indispensable newslinks he provides. (NOT!)

>>>Something that has been his purpose all along;
>>> to prove that the evil Western nations are out
>>> to eradicate all Serbs...

You know very well that I have never said nor I’ve ever implied of what you said above! These are your words and your thoughts, not mine.

My purpose here is to express my opinion about Kosovo/Yugoslavian tragedy on a public forum. Millions of people are doing the same all over the world, talking about different subjects with their open minds.

Finally, this is not the first time you attacked me personally. And it happens when you lack arguments to talk about the subject. And believe me, personal attacks from you or anybody else on this forum, do not bother me at all. It is just a prove that the other side lacks arguments and tries to divert discussion.

Rick, I agree with and respect ROE that are strict. The problem with this incident that the terrorists challenged (and this is not the first time) UN and KFOR, by committing crimes in front of their (UN/KFOR) eyes!? Keep in mind, after NATO arrival, people have been killed in front of hundreds of witnesses and perpetrators of these crime are on the loose!?

In this incident, children were intended target! Should we here about this on CNN every day, all day long for several days? Should Bernard Kouchner resign or ask Yugoslavian government for help? Keep in mind, none of KFOR soldiers or UN police speak Albanian, how are they going to look for criminals? As per UN resolution 1244 that ended NATO (terrorist) bombing of Yugoslavia, Yugoslavian police/military is to return to Kosovo. Why is it not happening? Who will be responsible in UN or KFOR if the perpetrators of this crime (throwing bombs on children) are not brought to justice within a month or six months?

I will remind you, bridges and hospitals of Yugoslavia were bombed for similar accusations, accusations that children are deliberately targeted and killed. Often those bridges were 600 kilometers (400 miles) far from Kosovo? Who is to bomb now? TV station in downtown Belgrade? Oil refinery in Novi Sad (400 miles from Kosovo)? Post office in downtown Pristina? Is Kosovo international problem to begin with? If it is how can KFOR/UN allow bombs to be thrown on children playing basketball? If KFOR/UN undertook responsibility for Kosovo, how come those in charge are never brought in front of western “democratic” media to explain incidents such as this one? And etc….

"....committing crimes in front of their (UN/KFOR) eyes!? Keep in mind, after NATO arrival, people have been killed in front of hundreds of witnesses and perpetrators of these crime are on the loose!?"

Now you see how frustrating it is for UN troopers on a daily basis. Part of the reason these criminals are not brought to justice is that many (I'm talking throughout the former Yugoslavia, not just Kosovo) of them are government, army, mafia, or police/para-military, or just protected very heavily. While there have been high profile/risk arrests, one must be very certain of a conviction before launching such a risky raid to arrest a war criminal/terrorist.

There also is sometimes mission protests by countries that effectively cancel such a mission. Examples are hard to find/prove, but there are MANY of them. France, China, CIS, Italy are among probably 20 or thirty countries that at various times, for various reasons, have protested various attempts to do so.

As for resolution 1244, I'm not aware/familiar with that, but I would question this failure too. It may be that NATO is not keeping it's end of the ceasefire, but I hate to say it: to the victor go the spoils.

My own opinion is that the terrs who did this attack on children should be hunted down and shot, much like I think all terrorists should be dealt with. Unfortunately, some people's definitions of terrorist are more inclusive than others, putting innocent people at risk.

"one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist"

Rings a bell, ehh wot!

1. Because it's pretty obvious.
2. Again, not necessary, because any remotely sane person would obviously condemn such an act.

quote:

---

Originally posted by I LOVE YU:

I will begin with media coverage. The article I posted failed in two very important issues:
1. These children were deliberately targeted and CNN (propaganda) did not find it necessary to say that.
2. The author of the article did not condemn the attack!?

Any comments?

---

Yes, I have two comments:
1. Hmm, somebody threw grenades at them from a car driving by. Could it have been deliberate? Nawh, must have been collateral... (sarkasm)
2. Reporters aren't supposed to condemn. - They are supposed to give an objective report of real events.
I've never, ever heard a newsreader on TV condemn even the most distasteful atrocity...

Journalists writing an article is another thing but not in the normal "telegram reports".

You know ILY...its quite easy to challenge the UN control from a speeding car!

For christs sake....what do you think happened....these idiots pulled up....saunted over to the kids....called out to UN peace keepers "look at me I got a granade and Im gonna use it"...then pulled the pin...threw it...then walked camely to their car while it exploded?

Is that what you think happened or maybe the car pulled up...a grenade was thrown then it speed away oh...and lets not forget what you would be bleating about if the UN troops hade opened up on the car and killed an inocent by stander.

Also...just where were the peace keepers in the first place.

You expect them to be everywhere yet they cant be....but you cant get that through your fat head. Next time you see a police man ask him why he cant be every where at once.

quote:

---

I will begin with media coverage. The article I posted failed in two very important issues:

1. These children were deliberately targeted and CNN (propaganda) did not find it necessary to say that.

2. The author of the article did not condemn the attack!?

---

Actually, the points you raise speak in favour of the journalistic objectivity of the news report.

This news report states the facts. The bomb was hurled at a basketball court, and children were injured. This was indeed reported, and nothing more is needed. People who read this can make their own opinions about it, and anyone sane will condemn the actions of those terrorist.

The reporters bias is already present when selecting what bits of news to publish, putting emotional attributes to them then leads to real propaganda.

I've followed the CNN news on the net myself during the whole conflict, and the reports always stuck to the same theme. At no point did they either glorify the attacks of NATO, or condemn the actions of the Serbian/Yugoslav forces, just stated the facts of what was going on. The only bias that could be found would be which bits of news were published, but then again the fact that reporters were restricted access from many areas can make this a bit single sided.

"Thousands" eh? Like the 100,000 "dead" Albanians you keep harping on?

"Why is it that you find the death's of innocent Albanians so repugnant but find the deaths of innocent Serbs (Children no less) to be perfectly acceptable? Why? Because you are a bunch of racists who think that serb=sub-human."

When have I found this perfectly acceptable? Tell me, where did I state that I find the deaths of innocent Serbs perfectly acceptable? Where did I state that I think Serbs are sub-humans?

If you can't cough up a quote within the next day, I suggest you shut your festering gob.

"Well, I find you both sub-intelligent. I've met trees with more right to oxygen than you."

Sod off.

Can you honestly say that KFOR is not protecting Serbs?
If you do, it might well be possible to arrange with one of the leaders for our peacekeepers to have a deep conversation with you. I'm pretty confident he'd feel insulted.

It's one thing if the Serbs moved initially but how's the situation now with more established KFOR? IIRC, people are even moving back!

"Why is it that you find the death's of innocent Albanians so repugnant but find the deaths of innocent Serbs (Children no less) to be perfectly acceptable? Why?

"Because you are a bunch of racists who think that serb=sub-human."

I don't think Serbs are sub-human but I think that a human is worth no more than the sum of his/her actions. If they are neutral, so what, but if they are negative, - Uh-oh...
While I feel sorry for those who are innocently hurt by it, the above principle must be used on nations.

The argument, 'we can't do anything with force to stop Milosevic's rampage because that might (will) hurt innocent people.' is not valid IMO.

What would have happened if the allies had used the same method of reasoning in WWII?

'We can't bomb Germany's factories to stop their war production because that will force us to carpet bomb parts of their cities where the factories are.'

"Well, I find you both sub-intelligent."

I'm surprised by your use of personal attacks.

"I've met trees with more right to oxygen than you."

So you think the UN troops arent trying to protect EVERYONE?

I tell you what....why dont you pull your nose out of your books and go over there and see for yourself.

I say that because regardless of what I say or anyone else says here the only way for you to really find out is to see for yourself.

Also, your local police have sworn to uphold the law in your town...YET...they cant be every where at once.

Same goes for the UN...they cant be everywhere...this is impossible.

"who think that serb=sub-human"

No...only those Serb animals that took part in the murdering, raping and evicting of a people from their homes are sub human. The rest are perfectly nice people I bet.

"I've met trees with more right to oxygen than you."

hehehehehe

You are absolutely determined to be wrong to the bitter end arent you!

>Same goes for the UN...they cant be
>everywhere...this is impossible.

Bulls.h.i.t. Its simply not true. Its not a question of not being able to be everywhere at once, but a question of failing to protect when they are there. I have heard reports from numerous journalists and some friends who served with KFOR, and they have stood by and watched while Albanians throw stones and riot against the Serbs. The British commander in Mitrovica, while hundreds of serbs were leaving in a convoy of busses (civillians I might add), ordered his troops not to intervene while the assembled albanian mob stoned the buses and stopped them, opened the doors and pulled one man out, beat him within an inch of his life and left him for dead. Do you know what he said when a Canadian journalist who wittnessed it asked him why they didn't intervene. "They must have been war criminals, that's why they're leaving, and we have no duty to protect war criminals". My ass! NATO signed a treaty, guaranteeing the security of the Serbs in Kosovo. Since the end of the bombing more Serbs have died than died in the fighting in the previous 10 years! It is total BS and you know it.

You also know that you don't care one damn iota about the Serb people. You think its funny that they are under a dictator that they can't shake. You are a racist bastard, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. The reason you have no compassion for the serb people is because you believe the propaganda about them. That they kill children and rape women, much like the Nazis taught that jews made their passover Matzoh from aryan children, or whites in the south taught that black men wanted nothing more than to rape white women. Its racism. You have been taught it and it has been ingrained. You, Mailman, are a racist.

LEADHEAD said:

>Can you honestly say that KFOR is not
>protecting Serbs?

>If you do, it might well be possible to
>arrange with one of the leaders for our
>peacekeepers to have a deep conversation
>with you. I'm pretty confident he'd feel
>insulted.

Not really. I already have contacts with some (mostly CDN) members of KFOR. Most of them are upset that they are not able to try to protect the Serbs. The higher ups are issuing commands to allow 'low level' attacks on the Serbs, as long as no one gets killed there is no response. If someone is killed there is a token investigation.

Leadhead, I never said you were racist, that comment was directed at two individuals. Read carefully and you will see.

As for the question of avoiding civillian casualties, diplomacy was *NEVER* attempted in good faith. I believe that if a diplomatic solution was attempted the results would have been far different.

>>>"Thousands" eh? Like the 100,000 "dead"
>>> Albanians you keep harping on?

First of all Paul did not say THOUSANDS but THOUSAND! Click on the link below and you will find the names and short description about more than 350 Serbs killed AFTER KFOR arrival. This Web Page is in English! http://www.decani.yunet.com/default2.html

This list of put together by Serbian Christian Church (Serbian Orthodox Church). This is not Milosevic’s propaganda. The list covers period from KFOR (June 99) arrival to December 1999!? And is not complete yet.

Here is another list of kidnapped-missing Serbs from Kosovo. It covers period from KFOR arrival to August 1999. Some 200 people are on the list! http://www.decani.yunet.com/default2.html

Serbian Orthodox Church claims that 1200 Serbs have been kidnapped/missing by now
Here’s the link: http://www.decani.yunet.com/default2.html

Paul Morrison was not far when he said that a THOUSAND Serbs have been killed SINCE KFOR (read NATO) arrival in Kosovo.

Finally, I am beginning to doubt that you are after the truth in Kosovo. You appear to have an excellent knowledge of the facts on ground, yet you deny crimes committed by KLA and NATO? I wonder why? Why is it that you are so one sided? In my case, although I am desperately trying not be one sided, I certainly write mostly about Serbian suffering! That is because I am Serb! But why would you, being neutral in this case (Norwegian?), why do YOU disregard Serbian sufferings? There is a reason, but what is it?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I've followed the CNN news on the net myself during the whole conflict, and the reports always stuck to the same theme. At no point did they either glorify the attacks of NATO, or condemn the actions of the Serbian/Yugoslav forces, just stated the facts of what was going on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ehhh, my (former) country man Gecko! You say CNN just stated facts! Which facts are you referring to? It would be nice indeed to see reporters presenting the “facts” only! That is ideal indeed! But what is a “fact”, what did CNN present as “facts” before, during and after NATO (terrorist) bombing of Yugoslavia, that was once your country as well?

So you are seriously saying that the forces of today's Germany is representative of those of Nazi Germany?

Well that's about as smart as saying all Brittish soldiers are ar*eholes because the Brittish Army massacred Indians (in India) in the past

"I am beginning to doubt the sincerity of your concern about atrocities in the former Yugoslavia and others like Christian, Mailman and the rest."

Your doubts are your problem.

"I am beginning to suspect that you are basically neo-nazis and just lying about the whole mess in order to finish what Nazi Germany failed to do. That is, subjugate or exterminate the Serbs and install the Albanians or anyone else but Serbs in Serbia."

You're insane...

Consider this:
If we were neo-nazis, do you really think we would support muslim Albanians against Christian Serbs?

quote:

---

Originally posted by I LOVE YU:
and 150 000 Serbs forced out of Kosovo AFTER KFOR (read NATO) arrival!

---

Its a fact that the UN cant be everywhere at once.

"If we were neo-nazis, do you really think we would support muslim Albanians against Christian Serbs?"

If you say so...

http://www.msf.org/projects/europe/kosovo/reports/2000/08/enclaves/temoignage.htm

Serbian and Albanian women try to reach out to each other across the madness ...
http://www.igc.org/balkans/wib/stats/cynthia.html

quote:

---

Originally posted by Envelope:
Physical displays are not necessary, it is your thinking that needs adjusting. And that is your job, nobody else's.

---

quote:

---

Can anyone verify that?

---

I do not have a source here but that fact is definitely true. In fact, I would be surprised if it wouldn't happen. In any teritorrial war so far something like that took place. Look at Croatia and how many Serbs were forced out of the country after the war there, for example.

ILY,

I still stand behind what I said regarding CNN and other even more reliable western media. Indeed words like what you mention were used when Serbs were on the offensive, but be careful as to whom you attribute them. It is the Nato officials that used them, not as much the reporters, who used them as quotes. You might argue that the reporters were selective as to which quotes to use, and I would agree with that as in such a conflict evem the best of reporters are biased, yet I still believe they did a good job.

If you check any of the articles from that time, you will see that they did indeed always try to get reports from the Serbian side as well, quoting them in about the same way. Without the independent western reporters, I doubt that Nato would need to try to find excuses for bombing the Chinese embassy, for example.

-Gecko

[This message has been edited by Gecko (edited 08-23-2000).]

Serbian children fired on but escape unhurt
By STEFAN RACIN

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia, Aug. 22 (UPI) -- Three Serb children in Kosovo
escaped unharmed when occupants of a passing car opened fire on them
following a similar incident last Friday in which nine adolescent Serbs were
hurt in a grenade attack. Meanwhile near Pristina the U.N. mission unearthed
a mass grave of what are believed to be Serbs.

But I would like to point out that while I totally disagree with Envelope on almost everything, I don't really mind him. I think he can write pretty well and he has a sense of humor. I just have to realize that there's a cut off point with him on some topics. He's not really getting my point and I'm not getting his so why waste further bandwidth? I just ranted about his beliefs in another thread that will probably reach that cut off point very quickly. And all of you should have reached that point about ten posts back.