My worries on this is that many americans will believe the fact the they recovered the machine. This is not true at all it was done by the british and the canadians, the ship involved was the Bulldog.

The real boat U-110 was crippled with depth charges and the captain after much thought decided to surface. The CO of Bulldog hated submarine warfare and decided to ram the stricken boat. at the last minute he decided that he had a great chance of getting a real U boat with codes and all.

I'm annoyed as it seems that the americans are trying to change history!

I will add more, but I'm on a course at the moment!

Ceebee,

But it was an alert made possible by the British code-breakers that alerted US forces in the area to the presence of U-boats.

A big thanks to our allies who made it possible.

I do wish the record would be set straight. The movie looks exciting but it's so obviously fictionalized I don't think I could bring myself to watch it.

------------------
-Blackclaw

Yes its just a movie, but some Americans will take it as word! And you try telling that statement to the Vets that were really there!

I'm greatful that America entered to war when they did, if they didn't I'd probably be speaking German now! I respect and honour those who served every November.

The reason that they've tried to change history ( I say it like that as in a few years time people will forget what really happened as they will only remember a film) Is that if the truth was told it wouldn't sell in the States. And you can bet you bottom dollar that the film will say its based on a true story.

Mabey you'd feel different if you had ever served. Which I doubt you have!

------------------
Take it vertical.. dive.. ram your talons deep.

First off I didn't generalize "all Americans" but you are a TV state and most people will believe whats shown in front of you!

I have nothing but respect for the airmen that served/died during WWII or any war come to thing of it! The reason that the people Americans did daylight bombing was they believed in accurate bombing not the blanket bombing of the RAF. and your right it took balls. This topic wasn't about the US are doing this and that, it was about the disrespect that "Hollywood" not all Americans!! have shown the people that were there!

This is not me being on a high horse at all, and I'm dam sure that if the UK/France/germany told a story like that the USA would be up in arms. With someone like me discussing it. I'm not bitching! Just stating fact and whats been on the news.

I Will watch the film when it airs over here, as a Submariner I will take great delight ripping it apart for technical issues! This is also not a starwars film it based on events that already happened. many people will think the Americans did a great thing they were the ones that captured the Emigma machine!

I'm not dissing your country, I was bringing a topic up for discussion.

Now I've got to go my bacon sandwich is ready!

I'm going to see the movie, but I think that we should all remember that the British are the ones who actually acomplished the Enigma theft and decoding. This movie is just Hollywood reinforcing the idea that we Yanks won the war single handedly. While I'm sure no one here thinks that, you might be shocked by what the average, non-WWII buff, American thinks happened in the war. The American media and education systems have effectivly maginalized the contributions of the British and especialy the Russians. I think that we should all keep this in mind. I understand that this movie is dedicated to all of the servicemen who fought for the allied cause.
I also understand that some veteran Brits are miffed about it. It would be like Britain making a movie in which the British develope the Atomic bomb and then use it to end the war. We Americans would cry bloody murder about such a distortion. The breaking of Enigma was a brillant piece of Intelligence work by the Brits, their equivilent contribution to our A-Bomb, and here is a movie that is crediting the Yanks for it.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

I've seen Saving Private Ryan several times now and love every bit of that movie. Maybe that says something about my tiny knowledge about WWII, but I can't help being touched every time I see it. Just curious to know what you see as unrealistic about Saving Private Ryan.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Opa:
Well, you shouldn't expect anything else from american war movies. I still frown about the "realistic" Saving Private Ryan.

---

Hoverstorm

quote:

---

Originally posted by Opa:
Patriot: The Soviet Union did the dirty work, and the allies got the glory. Roughly.

---

Opa

Get a history book.

Not to dismiss the US and British efforts in crushing the Third Reich (on the contrary, both were great contributors, without whom the war would not have been won, and I have nothing but deep respect and admiration for the dedication and supreme sacrifices of American and British veterans of that conflict) but to minimize the Soviet war effort is factually wrong. They took 20-30 million casualties, rebounded from invasion and the attemped slaughter and enslavement of their populace, and annihilated the greater part of the Wehrmacht with their massive and (by 1944, at least) well-led Army.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Heh...don't take such remarks literally....in my country we call it "satt på spissen".
It means that I've exaggerated my opinion to provoke somewhat. Of course, the allies did a great contribution to break Germany, but the Soviet Union did the most work. They broke the back of Wehrmacht. It was on the eastern front the outcome was made.

And I wouldn't trust american history books. Never.

Not Soviet either, for that sake.

Do you think making SPR about Stalingrad would have made as much money for Spielberg? No! He chose to make it about US soldiers because that's his interest and he wanted to market it in the US first.

Anyone who feels anything on the subject would do well to check out the PBS documentary about Russia in WW2 called "Russia's War". It is EXCELENT and very gripping. Lots of personal stories in there. The civilian suffering in the cities, particularly Stalingrad required a whole hour to relate... it was a long documentary that was on two years ago, 10 hour long.

"RUSSIA'S WAR VIDEO & BOOK COLLECTION

This sweeping documentary and its companion hardback book portray the
history of the people of Russia from 1924 to 1953 when Stalin ruled with a
murderous iron hand. At Lenin's death, Stalin rises to power and begins his
bloody campaign of an assault on the peasantry and the wholesale slaughter of
political rivals. As the purges reach a crescendo, Stalin and Hitler become allies,
leading to the invasion of Poland. But Germany's inevitable turnabout brings the
German army to the gates of Moscow. In the midst of war, Stalin brands his
own generals as traitors and prohibits any retreat, on pain of death. But when
the war ends, he is praised as a hero. Yet Stalin soon returns to the persecution
of his people, as the Cold War prevails. Order both today at a $5 savings.

PRICE: $94.93
LENGTH: 5 videocassettes and 1 hardback book

------------------
Rick.50cal

Hitler made his mistakes as well. He should have pressed on to Moscow but he did a right turn and went for the caucuses (not sure if thats spelt properly) a move that I think cost him the war on the eastern front!

Russia broke the back of germany. Theres no getting round it. As for the western natations we forget about Russia when it time to honour those that died!

Are you implying that I don't respect the sacrifices made by mine and everyone else's ancestors in the many conflicts throughout history.

I've had relatives Killed and Wounded in every War/Police Action fought by New Zealand, and in most cases the reason for the casualties was Fat-Headed British Officers and their Idiotic plans from the Boer War to the Korean "Police Action" and Malaya.

Remember a little thing called the 1st World War where New Zealand lost over 10 percent of its population (Idiotic blunders like Gallipoli, or walking into entrenched machine gun positions).

So when you comment that I or anyone else from New Zealand doesn't respect Veterans, you obviously havn't put alot of thought in to the comment.

I never mentioned disrespecting New Zealand war vets, What I did say was the Hollywood direspecting the Vets that were actually there.

My last post was to PatriotStorm, agreeing with him that Russia had the most casualties in WW2, and also mention that as a nation (Britain) we forget about Russia when when we remember those who gave thier lives for our freedom. I will not forget the sacrifice that the ANZACS gave during WW1, They had the misfortune of being lead by the Fat-headed british generals of that time! Who had no idea about fighting that kind of war! They were to interested in how much ground was taken and not the lives of the men.

Re-reading what I've posted shows no disrespect to New Zealand or any other country, If you've read it that way then I apologise as no offense was meant! I have nothing BUT respect for those that died/served.

Ceebee.

Referring to the drive on Caucasus, you are obviously talking about 1942 campaigns.

Well, post-factum what-ifs are rarely useful, however I can give you my understanding of this strategic choice, and why it looks better than renewed offensive on Moscow.

So, it's beginning of 1942. Wehrmacht has just suffered its first serious defeat - Moscow counter-offensive by Zhukov (I hope, everybody here knows the name of the most important military commander of that war, eh?). Blitzkrieg concept is dead and it's back to fortified frontlines from Black Sea to White Sea. War also became "seasonal" (no big operations offensives in spring and fall). Next move.

Germans' take on the situation is that Soviets still lack resources for a big offensive. Initiative is on their side. (By the way, Germans were thoroughly underestimating Soviet Union capabilities from 1941 till 1943; then they learned not to, but it was too late).

As any staff officer will tell you, "war is logistics". Mechanized war in particular is about petrol. So, Kavkaz choice was kinda obvious - first of all, if successful, Germans would get a vitally important supplement to (insufficient) oil production in Romania; secondly, they'd drastically cut petrol supplies for the other side (vast oil fields of Siberia were not even discovered at the time).

Push on Moscow would do nothing really good in terms of logistics, because most civilian government offices were already moved to Kuybyshev (upper Volga). Others were ready to move on 24 hrs notice.

Therefore they pushed on Kavkaz. You know what happened then. Soviets had resources for a major offensive, but instead of throwing them at Germans straight away, they created a Stalingrad meatgrinder, and AFTER the meat was properly grinded, all of a sudden, tens of fresh, well-equipped divisions cross Volga and engulf it. For cooking.

By the way, it is yet another common misconception that Soviet Army "learned to fight" somewhere in 1943. It learned to fight in several local wars of 1937-39 (Halhin-Gol, Finland, Spanish civil war etc). Most prominent Soviet generals of WWII (Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Timoshenko etc) were grown that way and in 1941 were already top military brass. Not some colonels, promoted on battlefield (sure, there were quite many excellent commanders of that breed, too).

Then, in 1941 Soviet Army was totaly taken by surprise and lost most of the heavy weapons, equipment, supplies and producing capabilities in June-August 1941. Imagine even Marines having to fight with 1898-vintage rifles, no maps, no radio against tanks. With Molotov cocktails (that's where the name comes from) for anti-tank. If memory serves, almost 40% of total KIA count happened at the same three months (!!!).

Soviet Army regained its composure (but not weapons, equipment and supplies) around September 1941. Since then, on the record it was more or less on par with Wehrmacht and eventually overcame it. Excellent leadership and better than Germans' strategic intelligence and situation assesments contributed enormously.

Very well written! And thanks for the spelling lesson! You bring up some good points, which are valid. I can see you know the history and the area quite well. I love to discuss this in more detail and perhaps other theaters as well!

But we should do it in a different thread!

The ending trailer stated that it was dedicated to the people that risked their lives to get enigma machines, then listed 3 cases, two British. Proper homage was payed.

Thanks for clearing that up, sorry but I tend to get a bit agitated when people imply that I have no respect for veterans.

On the matter of the Soviet Union in WWII, yes they succeed in carving up the German Armed Forces but you also shouldn't forget the Western Democracies efforts involved in the Eastern Front as well.

I'm referring to the aid sent to Russia from Britain and the United States eg: Aircraft Aluminium, Tanks, Aircraft, Anti Tank Guns, Ammunition, Anti Aircraft Guns etc. Also of vital importance was 500,000+ GMC trucks for the maintenance of the Soviet Armies in the field.

This is not to take anything away from the Soviet army, just to show that the Eastern Front was not a Soviet victory totally alone.
Without the Western Aid there is a distinct possiblity that the Soviet Union would not have prevailed.

-------------------------

I saw U-571 last Friday.

I loved every second of it. Throughout the movie, I don't know who’s knuckles were whiter; mine clutching the theatre seat, or the actors who grabbed whatever they could while being depth-charged.

This movie was pure non-stop action, from beginning to end. You are there, really there, experiencing the gripping fear of submarine warfare.

I believe that was the intention of the movie and if so, accomplished that superbly. I think the acting, camera work, and sound was excellent.

Now, regarding other issues.

The movie is NOT historical; it is fictional. It is based (loosely) on history (history being that there once were German and Allied submarines that fought in a war known as World War II, and that there was a German code machine the Allies called the "enigma").

Not only is it not historical regarding the event (the capturing of U-571 and the enigma code machine by Americans) but in many other areas such as what submarines of that era and their weapons could and could not do (such as dogfighting underwater with torpedo’s).

Don't look for character development either. There isn't much. It's more like the first 1/2 hour of "Saving Private Ryan" (the landing on the beach episode ) throughout the length of the movie.

Thankfully, in my opinion of what a "war" movie should be, it was not muddled up with "love" scenes or anything stupid and mushy like most are. And also, thankfully, there wasn't "angel music" playing all the time. The second "trailer" was misleading in that it showed a ball-room dance, leading the viewer to believe there was some "love" interests, and played angel music, of which there was neither in the movie. It was just man-to-man combat and basic survival.

I hope everyone who sees it will enjoy it for what it is and not concentrate on, or blame it for what it isn't.

Enough analyzing -- Go see it! I suggest choosing a modern theatre with a big-screen and digital sound system.

Salut!

JG2"FireCat!

I more got the feeling that he was talking about the initial drive in 1941, where Hitler suddenly ordered his divisions southwards(Kiev) and northwards(Leningrad) instead of moving for Moscow. This didn't do anything except keep a large number of german forces out of action for awhile. If Guderian had been allowed to continue, Moscow may very well have been captured in 1941.

And Moscow was, after all, an important centre for communications, and the railway. In addition, russian morale would've suffered if they had lost such cities as moscow...

My late grandfather Ian Butters served onboard HMCS's Restigouche, Ottawa, Wetaskouin, Swansey, and Crusader during the war. He sunk his share of subs and was present in the battle of the Atlantic from start to finnish, i'm sure he's rolling over in his grave about this movie.

His good friend Hal Lawrence and another sailor BOARDED a U-Boat during the war. HMCS Oakville paralised german U-94 in the Caribbean in August 1942. Mr. Lawrence armed with a .45 jumped into the water, losing his shorts in the process and boarded the sub. He neutralized a number of the hostile crew and then abbandoned it.

The Americans have no right to do this, taking credit for the hard work of the Royal Navy and The Royal Canadian Navy. I'm completely disgusted by this movie, as I am with every other american war movie. One loathesome and quite notable moment was in Saving Private Ryan, where Tom Hanks and Ted Danson take shots at Monty for being "Too Cautious". Well, sorry to tell you Mr. Hanks, but the Brits and Canadians couldn't afford to lose droves of men like the states could, that goes for supplies as well. And wait....that's funny, the Canadians were the only ones to actualy take their D-day objectives on the first day.

Well, that was a nice opertunity to vent ones anger.

Regards,

>sorry to tell you Mr. Hanks, but the Brits >and Canadians couldn't afford to lose >droves of men like the states could, that >goes for supplies as well. And >wait....that's funny, the Canadians were >the only ones to actualy take their D-day >objectives on the first day.

Are you telling Mr Hanks that statement or the people here, Because I think its crap! Sorry but there it is! I don't think the Americans could afford to loose droves of men, be ****ing greatful!! The American beaches were a lot more defended than Sword, Gold and Juno beaches as was Utah! But at Omaha the American 1st division was up against the best in the German coastal defences, I think it was the 350th (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read about this for about 6 years). The entire first wave at Omaha was virtually wiped out! I think they deserve a little more respect! God forbid what would have happened if Hitler had released the SS Panzer divisions!

Ceebee