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»  COMBATSIM.COM ARCHIVE FORUM   » Real Military Discussions   » Current   » China wants war... (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: China wants war...
LeadHead
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Member # 184

posted 03-07-2000 04:56 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As far as the US loosing a carrier, I'd like to recommend a good book: "Nimitz Class" by Patrick Robinson...

------------------
Lead-Head's Simulation Site:
http://fly.to/lead-head


Posts: 775 | From: Piteå, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Flip
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posted 03-07-2000 06:27 PM     Profile for Flip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The real Chinese threat to the U.S. is from the likes of Johnny Huang, Mary Hsia, and Dr. Lee. These are the likes the U.S. should be careful about.

I'm from the Philippines and right now its really being run by a few Chinese businessmen who've bought our President.


Posts: 150 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
_ALEX_
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posted 03-07-2000 06:29 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually, right now Russia has a lot of rubles, and even some dollars. At Q4 '99 they collected 30% more taxes than was budgeted - due to oil prices.
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Skater
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posted 03-07-2000 06:47 PM     Profile for Skater   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

Alex, not even close to what would be needed.

Russia is fighting a war that is quickly putting her into irreversable debt.

Russia better do something soon, or she won't be able to pay her debts, and should she default (yet again) on her loans, her credit with the world banks will be so shot she may never be able to come back from it (at least not in my lifetime).

-Skater


Posts: 78 | From: NYC | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
_ALEX_
unregistered

posted 03-07-2000 08:29 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You see, they also had 25% proficit (ie, spent less than collected).

Chechen war is not cheap affair, but not too expensive, either. We are talking here about some 100,000 troops using basically free-of-charge ammo and weapons (Warsaw Pact and sometimes even WWII stocks). With low average salaries that's maybe 200-300 mln usd per month (cant look up the actual reported figure, but in that order of magnitude).

Skater, on this topic you can take my word - as long as oil costs $30 per barrel, Russia can afford much more than when oil costs $10 per barrel.


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vip
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posted 03-08-2000 01:44 PM     Profile for vip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You guys talk about hitting China where it hurts most: Their wallet. Well, if you wanna bring up a kid who spend all his money on icecream and wan't to lend some $, it might work, but a whole country? Nope! If the international community isolated China to such an extend, that they went poorer and poorer, then you'd get a war for shure! I'm not in any way attached to China physically or mentally, but my suggestion is to let'em get the chance to earn money, 'cause when they start doing that, the next thing a chinese dude would wanna do, is buy a computer and connect to the Internet, when his 1. personal needs (food etc) has been met. I know China has stated that they wanna screen in / outgoing traffic from peoples computers, but that's a huge undertaking of monumental proportions: It's not going to be effective. The chinese people will then start to learn what freedom of speach and democracy means by exploring the net, and they won't be so conflictious. Anyone follows me here?? Maybe you guys think I'm naive, but just look at Iraq: What good has it done to anyone to keep'em away from international markets? Saddam's still there convincing his people that USA is the real Satan, and it's easy too: It's not possible for the iraqi people to get reliable information! Look at the serb / kosovo conflict: If those people were as rich as Denmark, I think they'd get by more easily. I'm not saying that money solves everything, just saying that as long as you've got such poor country's, the problems present in such a country can explode into war.

Sorry for my not so good english, but I'm danish, and btw, far far away from China, we don't even have nukes in Denmark (thank God), so it's easier for me as I'm not the guy targeted here, thank God again ;-)
And excuse me for my sarcasm.

Peace!!
vip


Posts: 160 | From: Denmark | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
bod
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posted 03-11-2000 12:31 AM     Profile for bod   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK, what if the Chinese "KNOWS" what you "know" that the US will hit the Chinese mainland with nuclear missiles if they blow a carrier? Then the only option they are left with is to take the carrier AND send a couple of dozen missiles to the US.

Nuclear strike on a carrier with IMHO never happen, unless the chinese have gone totally mad.


Posts: 80 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
VonBroam
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posted 03-11-2000 12:41 PM     Profile for VonBroam   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

I can't remember exactly when but a few months back I reda an article in our newspaper that was rather intertesting. There is evidently an unofficial U.S. policy called Irrational Rettaliation. In other words the U.S. might very well reply in a massive manner to even a small unconventional attack. If it was in our backwater newspaper , it is very certain that the Chinese know it too. For a very good look at what a limited nuclear war might be like I reccomend reading Eric L Harry's book "Arc light" .

VonBroam out


Posts: 327 | From: Beaufort, South Carolina | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cookie
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posted 03-12-2000 12:54 AM     Profile for Cookie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You guys need to keep in mind that any nuclear skirmish, no matter how small it will be, is going to affect the whole world. What do you think cancer rates will look like after say three or four medium sized nukes went off in your neighborhood?
So you wanna wipe China off the face of the earth? Cool. Do that, but don´t expect to live for another twenty years yourself after that. And guess what your children would look like? No wait, I forgot, you won´t be able to have kids anymore.

Posts: 685 | From: Dortmund, Germany | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
_ALEX_
unregistered

posted 03-12-2000 04:28 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Good point, but most of you miss three quarters of the twisted logic here. We cannot know whether Chinese will or will not commit to such an attack.

What they (as far as I understand) did is to point out that they do not rule such an option out. Moreover, they will seriously consider it and probably be willing to accept the (undoubtably serious) consequences. That's what nuclear deterrence is all about - typical case.

What is interesting, though, is that China uses it offensively (provided, nobody buys this BS about Taiwan being their province). Cannot remember if anybody did that before.


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Enzyme
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posted 03-12-2000 10:29 PM     Profile for Enzyme   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That doesn't make much sense.

Most of the discussion here predicates on an hypothetical scenario which implies that it is irrelevant whether or not China will "actually" use a nuclear warhead or that China even is contemplating such.

The question is what would/should a US reaction be *IF* China attacks a US battlegroup with nuclear warheads?

The most justified action is a retaliation in kind. That is, try and determine a regional concentration of Chinese forces and--provided these forces are critical for Chinese military action--nuke it. Nuclear warheads aren't even critical. Try extensive B-52 conventional bomb strikes. If there is no such concentration of Chinese forces, then a retaliatory nuclear strike is a waste.


Posts: 123 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
bighead111
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posted 03-13-2000 10:36 AM     Profile for bighead111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Guys,

Isn't it a very heavy subject??? Perhaps you lot play too much war games, cos you talked it just like during a dinner party Don't be a dump white assholes there. You will be crying your eyes out in the end if you use war against China.!! Look, Nato even couldn't win the war against Serbia recently by using the hi-tech. Yeah, you can wipe out whole China with your nukes, but this will not only be the end of China, also end of the world. You guys really want to see it??? you are totally mad!!!! Well, can't take too seriously with your guys, otherwise I will be completely insane. Sounds like your guy want another crusade to wipe off anyone with nonewhite skins!!! Oh my!!

[This message has been edited by bighead111 (edited 03-13-2000).]


Posts: 299 | From: london | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
56
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posted 03-13-2000 12:04 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
bighead111, be careful, those are pollitically incorrect statements (for a conservative).
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Zero Cool
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posted 03-13-2000 01:23 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't think they are incorrect; global nuclear war will lead to world distruction. Taiwan is in China's sphere of influence [now]. So they will have to deal with it. China, sooner or later, will become democratic (most probably after absorbing Taiwan), where the situation may be that you cannot call them 'commies' and they still don't like you (current trend), then what will you do (having to operate in international community)

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mbaxter
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posted 03-13-2000 03:27 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All this flippant talk of using nuclear weapons is in fact rediculous.

No government, not even the Chinese, would ever be crazy enough to go nuclear unless the very existence of the state was threatened. That is, China itself would have to be invaded before the men in Beijing would authorize nukes, and even then, I suspect they'd engage in a limited strike to show their resolve first.

Be realistic: you don't ascend to high positions of power without aquiring a strong sense of self-preservation along the way. Soldiers, heck even some generals, may be brave enough to push the button but no politician ever would be. Politicians are inherently a cowardly and weak lot. This is a universal thing, not just a feature of American politicians.

Even Saddam Hussein, a supposedly unstable dictator, didn't have the guts to use chemical weapons against the US. I'm sure the Chinese are even more prudent than Hussein was.

This just isn't going to happen. The Chinese will concentrate on guerilla-style warfare with their subs, surface ships, aircraft, and missiles, while making heavy use of naval "smart" mines. They call this "non-linear" warfare. Their generals talk a lot about this.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
56
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posted 03-13-2000 03:36 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Using nuclear weapons today is a sign of stupidity (not bravery), its not a coincedence that most military controlled nations are scewed up.
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yeah!
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posted 03-13-2000 03:42 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
America wants war too! Bring it on China!
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Paul Morrison
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posted 03-13-2000 11:10 PM     Profile for Paul Morrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mbaxter: I think that Saddam *DID* use NBC weapons against coalition troops during the Gulf War. In fact, one Seabee unit has been quite well documented as having been hit with a chemical blistering agent, and the pentagon itself estimates almost 20 000 coalition soldiers were exposed to NBC agents at some point, and only some of those cases were accidental (Kamisiyah). If you want, I could provide cites.


Posts: 1143 | From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Skywalker4777
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posted 03-15-2000 06:33 PM     Profile for Skywalker4777   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Has anyone else read more in-depth analysis of the Chinese threat than a blurb on excite.com? I don't mean that in an insulting way, but as a legitimate question.

The Chinese "new warfare" isn't just the use of military weapons, but the recruitment of "fighters" of all kinds. Two generals just wrote a book about exporting terrorism, both violent and non-violent. This means companies with ties to China might become part of their war effort(this means cyber-war, industrial espionage,etc) So we are faced with an enemy that is willing not only to waste the lives of tens of thousands of its own men(as displayed previously), but one that is willing to, in their words, "ignore conventions or legalities of warfare".

China may not be a nuclear threat, but considering that the Russians almost launched a couple years ago in response to a misidentified Norwegian rocket, I don't want to take the chance with Theater AND Global Missile Defense. We know we can't count on Clinton-Gore to build up the defense against nations like North Korea.

------------------
If you want peace, prepare for war.


Posts: 1 | From: Ann Arbor, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Vympel
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posted 03-17-2000 06:53 AM     Profile for Vympel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
About Russia integrating into NATO its not as hard as you think. Already the 5.56mm NATO variant of the AK-74M, the AK-101 , is in production. It shows better performance than the 5.45 AK-74 round. There are also upgrade programs for T-72 tanks in new NATO members to be upgraded with 120mm NATO main guns. Rewiring planes to fire NATO missiles is uneccessary considering Russian missles are better but it could still be done. Also Russia is such a huge country with such infrastructure (though not in excellent condition) integration in terms of NATO weapons standards is not completely neccessary. Also few can deny for example that the AK-47 and its modern versions are all time design classics (55 million units compared to the M-16 10 million).

[This message has been edited by Vympel (edited 03-17-2000).]


Posts: 238 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged

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