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Author Topic: GeForce2 GTS & Detonator 3
Bill Hewett
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posted 08-15-2000 07:07 AM     Profile for Bill Hewett   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, someone had to start this thread

I loaded up the nVidia 6.18 reference drivers last night for my Hercules GF2 32 MB and in Flanker2 I must say I saw improved framerates. I don't engage counters but rather subjectively observe view panning in graphically intensive scenes. The new drivers appear to be much improved over the v5.22 I was running. I sim at 1024x768x16 bit with FSAA 2x enabled, and have a PIII 866 o/c'd to 923 and 256 MB RDRAM (no o/c'ing of the GF2). Next up is a test of JF/A-18 flying thru dense smoke.

OK folks, let's see those empirical FPS ratings........


Posts: 1279 | From: MA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
eserron
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posted 08-15-2000 07:46 AM     Profile for eserron   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bill: I loaded the Detonator 3 drivers on my Elsa Gladiac last night. No empirical FPS tests yet, but I did fire up Janes WWII Fighters, and found that the new drivers seem to have fixed the problem with the introductory (museum) screen. The sky tearing problem seems better too (at 1024x768x32), but it's still an occasional issue. Since I know you occasionally run this simulation, I thought you might find this interesting.


Posts: 73 | From: Oak Hill, VA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bill Hewett
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posted 08-15-2000 08:51 AM     Profile for Bill Hewett   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Great news on WWII fighter eserron - thanks!
I'll give it a run this eve.

Posts: 1279 | From: MA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Overkill
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posted 08-15-2000 01:57 PM     Profile for Overkill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am curious about F18. Let me know what you find Bill. Also, has the FSAA improved? I know the interface has improved but what about performance. I have read some reviews but I would to hear it from someone who has flies sims like I do.
Posts: 597 | From: Midlothian, TX, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
TKorho
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posted 08-16-2000 10:20 AM     Profile for TKorho   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Overkill,
depends on what you compare.
Of course it has improved: about the same ratio as non-FSAA. Still heavy, but if it was very playable with Falcon4, 1k graphics 4x or 4x special graphics for me, and now it is even better.

The jump from 5.22 to 6.18 is very large!
Of course FSAA is heavy, but the overall performance got just a large step forward. Also I see less errors on other applications, like FSAA 4x4 High level with XWingVsTIEFighter. It's pretty, and practically flawless now!

------------------
(V)LtCol Ghost - Hornet coder, snowboarder
87th Stray Dogs
[IMG]http://www.87th.org/images/logo-s.gif[/IMG]


Posts: 388 | From: Tampere, Finland | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
jgalante
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posted 08-16-2000 10:02 PM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So, after I got my upgraded PC settled ([email protected]/Annihilator2), I did a simple comparison between the D3 6.18 drivers and
the last Creative Unified Drivers (based on 5.3 I THINK). In the Jane's F18 AIM-9x training mission, per Fraps, I get a consistent 2/3 frames higher with the Creative drivers then the Nvidia. Tested at both 8x6 & 10x7, which were almost identical
FPS, at F18's graphics option 'detail level 4' and 2x2 FSAA. This seems to correspond with Anand Tech site's review that shows the new drivers are slower at lower resolutions.
Also, I did not have any video flicker/flash problems which I did see with the NEW drivers in both F18 & EECH.

Problem I may have had in getting these results is that the Nvidia FSAA is very specific, while the Creative is not labeled to exactly what is what - may explain the differences?


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
TKorho
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posted 08-17-2000 01:39 AM     Profile for TKorho   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The last Creative drivers (I have Annihilator 2) were based on 5.30 or 5.32. It's actually said in the driver setup screen. I think 5.32.

2/3? Do you mean you get 17FPS vs 10FPS ? (ratio of (1 2/3)/10) Or something else? I haven't tested the new 6.18 in all uses, but those games I tested them they looked smoother and had not any kind of flashing which I had at times with the old drivers.

So far Creative has been rather quick in offering the new drivers, even if there is realistic time lapse - will be waiting for the Creative drivers based on 6.18! After all they are manufacturer specific drivers...

------------------
(V)LtCol Ghost - Hornet coder, snowboarder
87th Stray Dogs
[IMG]http://www.87th.org/images/logo-s.gif[/IMG]


Posts: 388 | From: Tampere, Finland | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
naz
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posted 08-17-2000 05:42 AM     Profile for naz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry to butt in here, but I can't seem to get the detonator 3 (6.18) drivers to work.

I have an asus v7700 which only arrived today. I first used the 5.32 drivers which I already had on my system for my old asus 3800 tnt2pro. the geforce2 works ok with them.

But, when I install the detonator 3 drivers (I followed the readme instructions to the letter), the screen goes all weird when windows tries to boot up. (that is, screen is all garbled with lots of different colours all aver the place and basically windows is completely unrecognisable). I have to manually reboot and go into windows safe mode and change the drivers back to 5.32 or standard vga to get the computer to work again.

I downloaded the 6.18 drivers from both reactorcritical.com and nvidia's site, so I don't think there was any download failures.

This is very frustrating, Has anyone else seen this or am I missing something simple?

Thanks for your help in advance
Cheers


Posts: 34 | From: Alice Springs, Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
jgalante
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posted 08-17-2000 06:28 AM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tkorho,

I get 2 or 3 fps more with the older drivers:
I was getting 15 to 16fps with 6.18
& get 18 to 19fps with Creative's.
I found/dloaded a 5.33 version, installed that and got another fps higher (19 to 20).
I checked this morning again with FSAA turned to "max" on the nVidia slider and fps are still a consistent 19/20 for this little
test; so FSAA is not really an impact like I thought it might have been.

After my "apples to apples" comparison last night, I now have Oclocked the memory to 396 & the Core clock to 210. Don't really expect to see much diff at these "lower" resolutions though.

John



Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Overkill
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posted 08-17-2000 09:02 PM     Profile for Overkill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Naz,

Did you completely uninstall the old ASUS drivers? I have the same board with no problems whatsoever.

Go to the system information page in your settings control panel and go to the registry page. Now do a registry check to make sure something in your registry didn't get screwy.

Also, you don't have any kind of Voodoo card in your system for Glide games, do you? I've heard of some problems with that setup.

Make sure you put it in the AGP slot. What else? Go to www.viatech.com and download the newest set of instructions for the VIA chipset if you have a VIA chipset mobo. This will update your AGP drivers among other things. If you an AWARD or something else try to check with the manufacturer to see if there is an updated set of instructions for the chipset.

If I come up with some other troubleshooting tips, I'll be back.


Posts: 597 | From: Midlothian, TX, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
naz
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posted 08-18-2000 01:19 AM     Profile for naz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Overkill

I didn't use the ASUS drivers, I just went straight in with the detonator 2 (5.32) drivers (2 weeks ago I had to do a complete reformat and reinstallation of windows as my old hardrive crashed so they should be the only ones in there)... but yes, I did a complete uninstall of those (at least I'm pretty sure I did). This is what I did:

I set the drivers to the standard vga drivers. I deleted the nvidia corporation key from the registry. I used "find" to manually delete all nv*.* files in windows\system - windows\inf and windows\help directories. I also checked the system information list and wrote down all other nvidia files that were not "found" by using nv*.* and then manually deleted them all from the windows\etc directories.

I then installed the det 3 drivers and same problem occurs.

I haven't checked the registry page of sys info to see if the registry is all screwy (I'll have a go now).

I will also have a look at viatech as you suggest.

I really appreciate your help, thanks very much. I will be back with my results.
Cheers.


Posts: 34 | From: Alice Springs, Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
TKorho
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posted 08-18-2000 07:16 AM     Profile for TKorho   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Now I've heard several reports over ASUS drivers being faster on their cards than NVIDIA reference.

I have Creative Annihilator2 and it does not have really speed difference if the drivers are their own or NVIDIA's.

But I recommend people with ASUS cards to test their specific drivers. At least Creative makes their own drivers rather quick, withing some weeks of the release of the reference drivers.

Anyway: for me the NVIDIA Detonator3 (6.18) are very progressive drivers and I see no reason to not use them. Faster than the old, better with some older games.

------------------
(V)LtCol Ghost - Hornet coder, snowboarder
87th Stray Dogs
[IMG]http://www.87th.org/images/logo-s.gif[/IMG]


Posts: 388 | From: Tampere, Finland | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
naz
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posted 08-18-2000 09:23 AM     Profile for naz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Overkill

I downloaded the latest via 4 in 1 drivers and the det 3 drivers now work!! They didn't at first (I had installed the 4in1 in turbo mode - whatever that means) but then I tried them in normal mode and...eureka.

Once again, thankyou very much for your time. Its good to know that there is always people on this forum willing to lend a hand. It's much appreciated.

Cheers


Posts: 34 | From: Alice Springs, Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
RubenJames
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posted 08-19-2000 12:54 AM     Profile for RubenJames   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
...has the FSAA improved? I know the interface has improved but what about performance....[/B]

The FSAA in F/A-18 I dare say, will not be improved as much as one would expect. No offence & exaggerations. After return to Falcon 4 community and playing the game for hours everyday now, I am beginning to realize the cause of the problem.

When Falcon 4 or F/A-18 was first released, both support only 16bits colour. I haven't had any proof of this until Falcon 4 is patched with eRazor's new coding. He modified the codings so that one has graphics options for 16bit colour or 32bit colours to choose from, just like many latest sims like Ka-52, F1 Grand Prix & Gunship just to name a few.

Then I applied FSAA to Falcon 4. Whichever driver either 5.XX or 6.XX would give me "banded skies" if I chose 16bits colour. And when I switched to 32bits, the blue sky looks perfect!! All this time, I have been thinking it's nVidia's problem. It's not. It's how the program being written. When I tested the same driver set in F/A-18, I got banded skies, the cockpit went purple and all texts were totally screwed up. So now I wipes it off my hard disk rather spent my time with Falcon 4 , EECH, Ka-52, Icewind Dale MW3 & Expandable.

Don't think F/A-18 will be improved. It's time to put it into the meseum. After all F/A-18 is not a good fighter. Too heavy, it's more like a bomber. But why would I like a bomber simulator? Only F-16 is a true Multi-role fighter!

[This message has been edited by RubenJames (edited 08-19-2000).]


Posts: 1093 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
RubenJames
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posted 08-19-2000 01:05 AM     Profile for RubenJames   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jgalante:
So, after I got my upgraded PC settled ([email protected]/Annihilator2), I did a simple comparison between the D3 6.18 drivers and
the last Creative Unified Drivers (based on 5.3 I THINK). In the Jane's F18 AIM-9x training mission, per Fraps, I get a consistent 2/3 frames higher with the Creative drivers then the Nvidia. Tested at both 8x6 & 10x7, which were almost identical
FPS, at F18's graphics option 'detail level 4' and 2x2 FSAA. This seems to correspond with Anand Tech site's review that shows the new drivers are slower at lower resolutions.
Also, I did not have any video flicker/flash problems which I did see with the NEW drivers in both F18 & EECH.

Problem I may have had in getting these results is that the Nvidia FSAA is very specific, while the Creative is not labeled to exactly what is what - may explain the differences?


jgalante,

I have a Creative GeForce II GTS which is the same as your Annihilator2 in Europe and the US. You are quite right, the latest driver from nVidia really depends on which game you are talking about. And the imrpovements is not great at all, sorry, no offence. I ran through a very tedious test and came up with a result in Word97 and a Falcon 4.0 Korea Theatre TE mission file.

Grab it at
http://home.netvigator.com/~pkmtsang/

In EECH more stuttering is experienced.



Posts: 1093 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
RubenJames
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posted 08-19-2000 01:10 AM     Profile for RubenJames   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jgalante:
Tkorho,

I checked this morning again with FSAA turned to "max" on the nVidia slider and fps are still a consistent 19/20 for this little
test; so FSAA is not really an impact like I thought it might have been.



That's the weirdest thing about F/A-18. It will drive you crazy if you think about all these performance metrics too much.

Normall & logically, if a driver set improves a game, it naturally improves another one by to nearly the same degree or proportionally. But it doesn't happen to F/A-18.

Feels like it doesn't ALLOW you to break a certain threshold FPS number!


Posts: 1093 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Overkill
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posted 08-19-2000 09:35 AM     Profile for Overkill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Naz,

Well, I am glad that things are going well. However, we need to see why you can't get turbo mode to function. Normal mode is there though for people who have problems with turbo mode, but we need to figure out why turbo mode is not working. Can you give me your exact specs again? Also do a DirectX diagnostic and see if you have any non-certified DirectX extensions.

Talk to you later.


Posts: 597 | From: Midlothian, TX, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
naz
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posted 08-19-2000 01:02 PM     Profile for naz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Overkill

I'm at work at the moment so I'll give you as much info as I can remember.

1. Athlon 700
2. epox 7kxa mobo (I flashed bios with the second bios update - can't remeber version no. - there have been several newer bios flashes made available, I tried two or three of them, but after flashing, my joystick/steering wheel would not register under windows (eg - instead of a MS FF sidewinder or MS FF wheel, it would register as 3 or 4 different MS sidewinder gamepads! Obviously the controllers would not properly work after that, so I restored the bios back to the version that worked - when I get home I will post the actual version I am using if that will help).

3. 256 m no name ram
4. Western digital H/drive (7200 rpm)
5. asus v7700 geforce 2 gts (det3 v6.18 hehe)
6. via 4.23 (I think) controllers (I downloaded the most recent ones as per above discussion).
7. SB Live value (liveware 3 and latest drivers)
8. Win 98 second ed.

I think that's it.

By the way, a friend of mine has a similar system but with an asus mobo (one of the new ones, but I can't remember which one). He had the same problems as me, and as soon as he changed from turbo mode to normal mode, the geforce2 worked with the det 3 drivers as well.

Cheers


Posts: 34 | From: Alice Springs, Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
naz
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posted 08-19-2000 05:22 PM     Profile for naz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Overkill

Some more info for you...

I am using directx 7a. I did the directx diagnostics as you suggest and it said the following:

1. (display tab) nvdisp.drv is uncertified - I did the directdraw and direct3d tests and all were successful.

2. (sound tab) emu10k1.vxd is uncertified - again the directsound test was successful.

I seem to remember these particular tabs always saying the drivers were uncertified, no mattter what system or vid/sound cards I've ever owned. The tests have always worked before as well.

I don't have the bios version handy but I'll hunt it down if you think it might help.

Cheers mate, I owe you.


Posts: 34 | From: Alice Springs, Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
jgalante
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posted 08-21-2000 11:29 AM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
RubenJames,

Thanks for the info - After "forcing FSAA in all applications", i finally saw the real effects both in Video quality & FPS. In the sims I'm into RIGHT now, it's not worth it; w/F18 - too many image problems and big fps hit; EECH is better, but still some flaws.
I have some more playing/tweaking to do, but so far I'm not too impressed w/ the GF2 for FSAA in these sims. In fact, I called the store just to see if they would let me return it for a V5500 (No!).
Atleast w/the FPS in normal mode I can run at higher resolutions, so the 'trade off' isn't that big a deal.


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bill Hewett
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posted 08-21-2000 11:47 AM     Profile for Bill Hewett   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I sim at 1024x760x16 bit and FSAA 2x (first notch). This is a compromise that facilitates very good FSAA without much of an FPS hit. Give it a try and I think you'll be pleased.
Posts: 1279 | From: MA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
jgalante
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posted 08-21-2000 01:06 PM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bill,

I will! I have been messing w/the middle settings (2x2s) at different res'. I'll try the 1x2 tonight...


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Smeghead
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posted 08-21-2000 02:52 PM     Profile for Smeghead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, if my experience is representative, then V770 users running 98SE should stay well away from 6.18. From what I've seen on my board, 6.18 sucks donkey bollocks.

Downloaded 'em yesterday, did the old kill-old-drivers-with-a-vengeance thing, stuck the new set, and...

got completely stuck at 640x480 desktop resolution.

In the properties->settings tab, I cranked it up to 1024x768, hit 'Apply', and was asked to test that screen mode. Hit 'OK' for the test, it blinked out and back in AT THE SAME RESOLUTION, and I was asked if I wanted to keep that resolution. I hit 'yes', and I was left at 640x480 with the res slider showing 1024x768.

Not impressed, I tried again, but instead of 'Apply', I hit 'OK. Same thing. Reinstalled, tried again, same thing.

I went straight back to 3.68, and I'm staying there. The new set obviously made my board want to puke.


Posts: 1143 | From: Chicago, IL - a Brit abroad | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
TKorho
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posted 08-22-2000 04:09 AM     Profile for TKorho   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sure, on non GF/GF2 boards the detonator3 won't really do any good. The old 3.X drivers are pretty good for other cards. Faster and more refined for their job.

I get playable (but demanding) FPS on most sims with 1k graphics and 2x2 settings. Beaty to watch. It IS 4-5 FPS slower in Falcon4, but it is worth it. And still about as much as I got from the old TNT2.

Haven't tested the F/A-18 yet, I have it but haven't had time to fly it while flying Falcon4. :-)

By the way: I tested yesterday with OpenGL CounterStrike, and without any limiters my FPS hit the monitor refresh rate roof on quiet spots, and ~40 in even hardest action. This with 1k graphics and 2x2 FSAA. Not bad.

1k is my desktop resolution (small monitor), so I do not want to stretch it for games either.

------------------
(V)LtCol Ghost - Hornet coder, snowboarder
87th Stray Dogs
[IMG]http://www.87th.org/images/logo-s.gif[/IMG]


Posts: 388 | From: Tampere, Finland | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
jgalante
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posted 08-22-2000 06:21 AM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tkorho,

What version(?) of F4 are you playing? I did a new install last nite (been off my HD for a while) and followed the Onramp article to install RP3 and eRazor. Finally got them up and running; although I did have some stability problems with the Razor version, I was able to fly around a bit & test out some of the diff FSAA/graphic settings.

My problem is I've been away from simming for so long (since Christmas!) now I have all this new hardware and don't know what to fly 1st (F4, F18, EECH, etc etc.)

Gorilla


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
TKorho
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posted 08-22-2000 02:42 PM     Profile for TKorho   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm flying F4 RP3 mostly.
At times eRAZOR, but since it is not yet multiplay compatible for our squadron, it is usually just testing it.

Just grab Falcon4. It will outlast the others. EECH at times for relaxation. F/A-18 when you get bored, but when you get bored of THAT, you'll have to go back to Falcon4.

------------------
(V)LtCol Ghost - Hornet coder, snowboarder
87th Stray Dogs
[IMG]http://www.87th.org/images/logo-s.gif[/IMG]


Posts: 388 | From: Tampere, Finland | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged

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