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»  COMBATSIM.COM ARCHIVE FORUM   » Site-Related Discussions   » Article Feedback   » Preview / History: IL-2 Sturmovik: Me 109 Weapons

   
Author Topic: Preview / History: IL-2 Sturmovik: Me 109 Weapons
Editor
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posted 06-05-2001 12:03 PM     Profile for Editor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

The eagerly awaited IL-2 Sturmovik will feature not only Russian aircraft but those of the Luftwaffe as well. In fact, it'll model several variants of the Me 109 alone. With so many choices, you'll need to know your 109 weaponry. In this article, we take an in-depth look at the evolution of Me 109 firepower.

Preview / History: IL-2 Sturmovik: Me 109 Weapons


Posts: 406 | From: COMBATSIM.COM | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Stevem
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posted 06-06-2001 04:03 AM     Profile for Stevem     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Good article. However, at the risk of being branded a pedant, I have to point out that the terms “Me” and “Bf” were not used interchangably for the 109.

Willy Messerschmitt bought Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (the Bavarian Aircraft Works), the company originally started by first world war ace Ernst Udet, in the 1920s All aircraft designed by this company and accepted for Luftwaffe service were given the designation “Bf”. In July 1938, the company name was changed to Messerchmitt A.G., and all designs accepted for service after this date were given the designation “Me”. Thus all models of the 109 and 110 are referred to as “Bf”, because they entered service before this date, while models such as the 410, 163 and 262 are all given the designation “Me” as they entered service after the change of name. So, technically, there isn't any uch thing a an Me 109.

It’s also worth noting that the wing mounted armament of the 109 was always a compromise. The original German air ministry specification in response to which the 109 was designed called for a fighter with two machine guns. Messerschmitt took full advantage of this to produce a fighter with two machine guns firing over the cowling, and a thin wing devoted entirely to producing lift. This created a machine of superb performance, but the first appearance of the eight gun RAF fighters came as an unpleasant surprise to the Germans, who hastily tried to upgun the 109. The fragile wing was initially modified to take a 7.92 mm MG 17 (a development of the infantry light machine gun), including a Heath-Robinson arrangement for ammunition feed where bullets ran from the wing root to wing tip and back before being fed to the guns (the wing simply didn’t have room for conventional ammunition boxes). Later (in the “E” model) the wing was modified to house a 20 mm Oerlikon MG FF, a redesigned Swiss anti-aircraft gun. The wing now included large bulges to accommodate the drums of cannon ammunition, which had an adverse affect on performance. Because of the difficulty of fitting armament in the wing, none of the later models of the 109 had integral wing armament, instead they used removable pods to house a variety of cannons, machine guns and other weapons. The Spitfire wing (always designed to include armament) was thinner than the 109s, immensely strong, and still had room for four Browning machine guns and ammunition boxes. Which may go some way to explain why later developments of the Spitfire were improvements on the original, while later 109s became less and less pleasant to fly.

I sometimes wonder why my head is full of this useless information. So does my wife. Usually aloud, at dinner parties. Ah well.

But never mind all that, when is this game going to be released? It looks so good that I want to play it RIGHT NOW!

Steve MacGregor


Posts: 1 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schatten
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posted 06-06-2001 07:21 AM     Profile for Schatten   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Steve,

You beat me to the Bf vs Me punch, and in a much better fashion too.

The fulll version is supposed to be out in November now, there is a new publisher that pushed the date back from August, but a playable demo is to come out in September.

In addition to the planes listed in the previews Oleg is encouraging people to make cockpits for some of the (for now) AI only planes to allow them to be flown, as well as making new 3D models for other planes to be included in the game. A partial list is here:
http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/ai-units.asp?id=

And another site, which I'm not sure is still semi-secret or not, lists more as well along with allowing people to "reserve" planes they're working on. I have it on good authority that a Romanian IAR-80/81 cockpit in is the works to make that plane flyable as well.

Also looking at that list on the BB site, I realise that it's a little outdated. The FW 190A-4 will be flyable in the final version as well as the Yak-9, La-5 and Yak-3 I believe. I'll try to find and updated list.

And seeing as that is your first post, let me be the one to say welcome to the forums.

--------------------

Yes I am a minion of the Devil, but my duties are largely ceremonial.


Posts: 2938 | From: Land of the Lost | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bismarck
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posted 06-06-2001 07:41 AM     Profile for Bismarck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In regards to the 109s' wings, Len Deighton suggests that the addition of wing guns made Luftwaffe pilots nervous about turning at the extreme official rate (something about wings maybe falling off). He suggests that, technically, the 109 could turn with the Spit Mk I.
Posts: 1432 | From: Madison, Wisconsin via Missouri | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Twitch
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posted 06-06-2001 10:03 AM     Profile for Twitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Looks like there will be a nice variety of 109s to fly. It is important for a good sim like this to have variety instead of wishing or saying 'they should have put that armament in.' But certainly there will be user mods with even more variants!

The Me vs Bf thing is correct but the thing I always find interesting is that Allied combat pilots always called them "Me's" since they didn't know or care the German designation at the time. Like "The Me rolled and fired." The German aces I've spoken to NEVER call the 109 a Bf. They always refer to it as a 'Messerschmitt' by full name. Like "we were flying the Messerschmitt one oh nine G then..."

And as curious as it is for us armchair enthusiasts to compare and wonder about wing guns, General Galland answered the question perfectly many years ago when I asked him a question about the 1st 20mm gondola guns degrading maneuverability. I asked,"Did your plane have the extra 20mms?"
Galland replied with a little snort-laugh, "You're goddamned right it did!" He perferred the firepower over all else.

Beyond factory models of all German aircraft, armorers made field mods of all kinds never listed in specs in books. Kind of like sim modders befor their time!


Posts: 638 | From: L.A. CA U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Admin
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posted 06-06-2001 10:27 AM     Profile for Admin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Stevem,

I am responsible for adding the note that "Bf" and "Me" is used interchangeably. I don't say that it's correct, just that it is used that way. Why? I first became troubled back when Len did his "Tale of Two 109's" article. Even back then I knew that the IL-2 Sturmovik game itself lists all 109s as "Bf" 109s and Len "Viking1" was calling them "Me" 109s. I found the info about Byerische Flugzeugwerke being bought out by the Messerschmitt A.G., but nothing about the 1938 date being the distinct reason for the change in prefix use.

You may find it interesting that during my web research for an answer to this question, I visited about a dozen sites dedicated to info about the 109's (I'm sure I missed the definitive site, of course). Many of the 109 afficionado's sites I visited used the Bf prefix, and still others used the Me prefix. I found too that plastic model kits are the most notorious for referring to 109s as Me 109s. There was one site that even called them the Bf Me 109s. Of all the Bf-109, Me-109, and even Bf Me-109 sites I found, not one gave any explanation for the apparent confusion in the nomenclature for identifying these wonderful machines. Go figure!

All I can say to you is THANK YOU for clearing up the confusion once and for all.

UPDATE: Twitch, you were writing as I was writing Your experience with the German and American pilots is awesome info. I feel a bit better now Perhaps the best thing would be to refer to the 109's as the Messerschmitt Bf 109s?

--------------------

Douglas Helmer
Forum Administrator
publisher@combatsim.com


Posts: 2792 | From: COMBATSIM.COM | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged

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